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Postby DK » Sun May 09, 2004 2:40 pm

Adding on to LBJackal, don't pay attention to fielding percentage. To make an error, you at least have to do something right in the first place, unless the ball was hit at you. An error is a moral judgement by the scorekeeper, a record of what he thinks should have happened.

Pay attention to ZR (Zone Rating) and RF (Range Factor). Jeter's fielding statistics in each of these two have been among the worst in baseball the past four or five years.

Every time I hear about Jeter's fielding I hear "well, he makes this great diving play and turns and flips the ball home and blah-blah-blah".

First of all: The only reason he dives for everything is because he doesn't know how to position himself for certain hitters.

Second of all: He dives for everything and doesn't get everything. Those few times he does catch it, people make a huge deal out of it. In the Bill James Abstract, James mentions a 3rd basemen whom everyone considered to be a great fielder (His name escapes me). However, all he did was dive- for everything. He was just trying to look flashy.

Think of it this way. A pull hitter is up. Most shortstops think "OK, this guy is a pull hitter, so let me move over two steps". Jeter thinks, "I wonder how many women are looking at me". Then, smash! A ground ball to the side of Jeter. He makes a diving stab at the ball and snares it. The crowd applauds. The other SS, recognizing the pull hitter beforehand, makes a simple backhand grab, and nobody applauds him... The amount of balls hit to Jeter that he misses due to positioning DOES cost the Yankees games. It's just that the offense of that team makes up for his defense.
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Postby DK » Sun May 09, 2004 2:44 pm

ajgnydc722 wrote:Please explain to me why Renteria and especially Mike Young are superior offensive players to Jeter.


OK, here goes:

Renteria: Hit .330 last year with 13 HR, 100 RBI, and a BB/K ratio over one for a .394 OBP. Also had 34 SB.

Young: Leading off in a VERY potent line-up, hit 14 HR and had 13 SB last year. Younger and has pop in his bat, breaking out this year. Hit .306 and scored 106 runs.

Jeter: Injured. Had BB/K rate under .5. 11 SB.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Sun May 09, 2004 2:48 pm

aww DK beat me to it! stupid 56K wouldnt let me load MLB.com fast enough :-t
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Postby DK » Sun May 09, 2004 2:49 pm

CubsFan7724 wrote:aww DK beat me to it! stupid 56K wouldnt let me load MLB.com fast enough :-t


Lol. Poor CubsFan.... :D
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Postby LBJackal » Sun May 09, 2004 2:51 pm

CubsFan7724 wrote:
LBJackal wrote:KC shoudl'nt me mentioned in the same breath as Texas/StL/NYY.

For offense, I like NY. Defense, StL. But St. Louis has to be #1 overall.

Rolen is not far behind A-Rod in my books, especially when you factor in defense, Renteria is far better than Jeter, Pujols is better than Giambi, and both don't have a good 2B. So I'm going with St. Louis. Texas has good yougn talent at all 4 positions, but they arent' as good defensively, or even offensively for that matter.

Ya Young, Blalock, Soriano and Teixiera couldnt hit the broadside of a barn right?? Because all 4 of their infield posistions are good hitters, and dont show a weak spot there, I go with Texas as the best all around hitting infield.


I didn't say Texas couldn't hit. Because obviously they can. But they're not as good defensively as StL. Pujols is a good defensive 1B, and could win a Gold Glove some day. Rolen and Renteria already have multiple Gold Gloves, and are the best hitters at their position in the National League. So by my count, StL is better offensively at 3 of the 4 positions, and better defensively at all 4 positions. Teixeira and Pujols are close in FP%, but Pujols has better range. In the 8 criteria we're considering, StL wins 7 of the matchups against Texas. Convinced yet?
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Sun May 09, 2004 3:04 pm

I dont think Tony Womack is better defensively than Soriano }:-) . Well, fine Ill concede the cardinals, I hate to since i hate them so much! :-[
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Postby blankman » Sun May 09, 2004 3:05 pm

I forget who it was, but who said Tex was better than Giambi? Give me a break.

1B Pujols Giambi Tex
2B Soriano Womack/NYY tie
3B A-Rod Rolen Blalock
SS Renteria Jeter Young

Stats don't tell the whole story about defense, since there are so many factors that go into the amount of plays players make a game. There are so many factors that affect plays- groundball/flyball pitcher, the amount of strikeouts the pitcher has (NYY in particular tend to K more hitters than most from my memory), length of the infield grass and probably a few others. I buy that Jeter has bad range, especially last year due to his shoulder, but I will not agree that he costs the team more than 1 game ALL year.

In reality, defense IS overrated. Sure it can save 1 or 2 runs in a game, but not in every game. What matters more is what the players do at bat, when they can have a bigger effect on the actual outcome of the game.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Sun May 09, 2004 3:10 pm

Gimme Giambi right now. In a few years, Ill take Tex. This guy was the #5 pick in the 2001 draft, which included studs like Prior and Mauer. Hes a highly touted young hitter who already is getting lots of respect from pitchers. (He gets walked all the time) He can hit for power, and he'll prolly 30-100 this year with .270-.280 average. He can only get better.
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Postby blankman » Sun May 09, 2004 3:13 pm

CubsFan7724 wrote:Gimme Giambi right now. In a few years, Ill take Tex. This guy was the #5 pick in the 2001 draft, which included studs like Prior and Mauer. Hes a highly touted young hitter who already is getting lots of respect from pitchers. (He gets walked all the time) He can hit for power, and he'll prolly 30-100 this year with .270-.280 average. He can only get better.


I agree with most of what you said, but walks don't necessarily translate to respect from pitchers. If this were the case, Soriano would be walked all the time. Walks, unless you're Bonds or if they are intential walks of course, moreso translate to good plate patience. I don't mean to nitpick, but I thought I'd point that out.
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Postby DK » Sun May 09, 2004 3:16 pm

blankman wrote:Stats don't tell the whole story about defense, since there are so many factors that go into the amount of plays players make a game. There are so many factors that affect plays- groundball/flyball pitcher, the amount of strikeouts the pitcher has (NYY in particular tend to K more hitters than most from my memory), length of the infield grass and probably a few others. I buy that Jeter has bad range, especially last year due to his shoulder, but I will not agree that he costs the team more than 1 game ALL year.

In reality, defense IS overrated. Sure it can save 1 or 2 runs in a game, but not in every game. What matters more is what the players do at bat, when they can have a bigger effect on the actual outcome of the game.


I disagree. A recent study by NYM showed that roughly 70 balls not caught by 2002 CF's would have been caught by Mike Cameron. 70 balls=almost three games just there. When you factor in that not every ball in a game goes to CF, AND that the balls that did drop went for XBH (Chances are), that's a lot of hits and runs saved.

There's a piece in Moneyball about Johnny Damon. As most of you know, Johnny Damon was a great fielding CF for Oakland. When he left, Terrence Long was his replacement. Long is a below-average fielder. Using statistics, sabermetrics, and such, then-Assistant GM Now-LA-GM Paul DePodesta figured that having Long in CF would lose the A's about one run every ten games. That is not a trivial number for one fielder.

Now, Jeter, maybe the worst defensive SS in baseball, has more balls hit in his zone than a CF has hit into their zones. Having the worst defensive SS at the position than say, Omar Vizquel (I'm using him as an example) costs more than that, maybe about one run every seven games (I don't know the exact number, but it is more than 1/10). Again, not a trivial number lost by one fielder.

Therefore, it is easy to say that Jeter loses more than one game for his team overall over the course of a year.
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