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Postby jeffc_76 » Sun May 09, 2004 1:55 pm

and he came back last year, missing only a month, after a separated shoulder injury that many originally thought could cost him the whole season. He clearly was not 100% and had less range moving to his left all season. Not fair to point to observations on his range from only last year.
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Sun May 09, 2004 1:55 pm

slomo007 wrote:Jeter is bad, and I could be wrong, but I never viewed Pujols as a great defensive first basemen either. Am I just way off? Obviously, I'm not questioning his offense.


Yeah I don't think Pujols is a great 1st baseman, but I could be wrong.
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Postby slomo007 » Sun May 09, 2004 1:58 pm

ajgnydc722 wrote:
slomo007 wrote:Jeter is bad, and I could be wrong, but I never viewed Pujols as a great defensive first basemen either. Am I just way off? Obviously, I'm not questioning his offense.


Yeah I don't think Pujols is a great 1st baseman, but I could be wrong.


I'm pretty sure he's not, I heard some announcers talking about it, but I don't get to watch many, if any, St. Louis games so I don't like to talk like I know it all. But, if he's not, St. Louis does not have that great of an IF....obviously Edgar is awesome, Rolen is good, Pujols is questionable, and 2B is a black hole. I like the Rangers' overall offense and defense IF. I'd say the Yankees could be next. Also, don't forget about Montreal, Vidro and Cabrera are almost as good as they come at 2B and SS. Wilkerson is also a pretty talented 1B.
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Postby jpbusta » Sun May 09, 2004 2:00 pm

slomo007 wrote:
ajgnydc722 wrote:
slomo007 wrote:Jeter is bad, and I could be wrong, but I never viewed Pujols as a great defensive first basemen either. Am I just way off? Obviously, I'm not questioning his offense.


Yeah I don't think Pujols is a great 1st baseman, but I could be wrong.


I'm pretty sure he's not, I heard some announcers talking about it, but I don't get to watch many, if any, St. Louis games so I don't like to talk like I know it all. But, if he's not, St. Louis does not have that great of an IF....obviously Edgar is awesome, Rolen is good, Pujols is questionable, and 2B is a black hole. I like the Rangers' overall offense and defense IF. I'd say the Yankees could be next. Also, don't forget about Montreal, Vidro and Cabrera are almost as good as they come at 2B and SS. Wilkerson is also a pretty talented 1B.


I think he was being sarcastic when he said pujols wasn't a great 1st baseman because he probably got mad at the fact that the guy was saying Jeter was bad. That's not true though. Jeter is HORRIBLE when it comes to defense.
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Postby Cooner » Sun May 09, 2004 2:09 pm

i'm a new yorka, and i still have to say that both Cards and Rangers are better than the Yanks (whether talking fantasy or including defense)

Pujols and Rolen... obviously the best pair of infielders, fielding and hitting, in baseball. And with one of the best SS out there in Renteria, man, that's nice. And honestly, Tony Womack is no slacker at 2nd... I mean, he's pretty good defensively, and he's starting to fill into the role of leadoff man for the Cards nicely.

You gotta love the Rangers young infield, especially with Young coming into his own. Blalock is carrying the team, Tex is very nice, oh, and then there is Soriano...

And the Yanks, well, big hole at 2nd, Jeter's a gamer, and a great guy to have on any team, but he's no Renteria, and at least for now, not even a Young. ARod is incredible, but he's not THAT much better than Rolen, and can't make up for the Ranger's all-around quality. And Giambi's D and streaky play doesn't make for a solid 1st baseman in my opinion.

Just look at individual positions:
1st: Pujols >> Tex > Giambi
2nd: Fonso >> Womack >> whoever the yanks toss in
SS: (the hard one) I would say Renteria > Young > Jeter but that's a hard call... in another year or two I probably would say Young > Renteria > Jeter
3rd: ARod > Rolen > Blalock

So the only position where the Yanks win is 3rd, and it's probably the deepest position as all three are great.

So if we're talking fantasy, I say
StL > Rangers >> Yankees

And the same in non-fantasy.
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Sun May 09, 2004 2:18 pm

Cooner wrote:i'm a new yorka, and i still have to say that both Cards and Rangers are better than the Yanks (whether talking fantasy or including defense)

Pujols and Rolen... obviously the best pair of infielders, fielding and hitting, in baseball. And with one of the best SS out there in Renteria, man, that's nice. And honestly, Tony Womack is no slacker at 2nd... I mean, he's pretty good defensively, and he's starting to fill into the role of leadoff man for the Cards nicely.

You gotta love the Rangers young infield, especially with Young coming into his own. Blalock is carrying the team, Tex is very nice, oh, and then there is Soriano...

And the Yanks, well, big hole at 2nd, Jeter's a gamer, and a great guy to have on any team, but he's no Renteria, and at least for now, not even a Young. ARod is incredible, but he's not THAT much better than Rolen, and can't make up for the Ranger's all-around quality. And Giambi's D and streaky play doesn't make for a solid 1st baseman in my opinion.

Just look at individual positions:
1st: Pujols >> Tex > Giambi
2nd: Fonso >> Womack >> whoever the yanks toss in
SS: (the hard one) I would say Renteria > Young > Jeter but that's a hard call... in another year or two I probably would say Young > Renteria > Jeter
3rd: ARod > Rolen > Blalock

So the only position where the Yanks win is 3rd, and it's probably the deepest position as all three are great.

So if we're talking fantasy, I say
StL > Rangers >> Yankees

And the same in non-fantasy.


Sorry to say, I find some severe flaws with your reasoning. Cards and Rangers have better infields NOT including defense? Wow.

Pujols and Rolen better combo than Giambi and A-Rod? A-Rod is arguabley a better hitter than Pujols and Giambi puts up better stats than Rolen. I'm just speaking offense here, keep in mind.

There's been multiple arguments about Jeter and Renteria and who's better and who's not, that they are basically pretty much equal. And I wouldn't call Tony Womack much of an upgrade over somebody like Miguel Cairo. Womack is finding it hard to even keep his job over Marlon Anderson right now. Womack played for what? 3 or 4 teams last year if I'm correct (Arizona, Colorado, Chicago, started this year with Boston and now St. Louis.) Womack is nothing better than what the Yankees throw out there.

And comparing Texas's offense to the Yankees is just asanine right now at least. Maybe in 2, 3 or 4 years when Blalock, Young and Teixiera are perrenial allstars, maybe then you can call them better but a hot start doesn't put them there.

If we go by your reasoning it should look more like this:

1B: Cards, Yanks, Rangers
2B: Rangers, Yanks/Cards equal
3B: Yanks, Cards, Rangers
SS: Yanks/Cards tie, Rangers

I find it hard to say Cards and especially Rangers have better offenses than the Yankees.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Sun May 09, 2004 2:22 pm

LBJackal wrote:KC shoudl'nt me mentioned in the same breath as Texas/StL/NYY.

For offense, I like NY. Defense, StL. But St. Louis has to be #1 overall.

Rolen is not far behind A-Rod in my books, especially when you factor in defense, Renteria is far better than Jeter, Pujols is better than Giambi, and both don't have a good 2B. So I'm going with St. Louis. Texas has good yougn talent at all 4 positions, but they arent' as good defensively, or even offensively for that matter.

Ya Young, Blalock, Soriano and Teixiera couldnt hit the broadside of a barn right?? Because all 4 of their infield posistions are good hitters, and dont show a weak spot there, I go with Texas as the best all around hitting infield.
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Postby LBJackal » Sun May 09, 2004 2:24 pm

Well he IS preventing them from winning games. Not tons, but some, but people don't realize it because the Yanks already make the playoffs every year. One play at home plate does not make him any better a SS. It doesn't make up for the dozens of balls that get through, that shouldn't, over the course of a season. Not even close. Fielding % means nothing to me, because even if he made no errors he would still be hurting his team a lot defensively. Statistically, Jeter is very consistently the worst starting SS in baseball. Dead last. Enrique Wilson has always been a better SS than Jeter. If that doesn't convince you he's bad, I don't know what will.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Sun May 09, 2004 2:33 pm

ajgnydc722 wrote:
Cooner wrote:i'm a new yorka, and i still have to say that both Cards and Rangers are better than the Yanks (whether talking fantasy or including defense)

Pujols and Rolen... obviously the best pair of infielders, fielding and hitting, in baseball. And with one of the best SS out there in Renteria, man, that's nice. And honestly, Tony Womack is no slacker at 2nd... I mean, he's pretty good defensively, and he's starting to fill into the role of leadoff man for the Cards nicely.

You gotta love the Rangers young infield, especially with Young coming into his own. Blalock is carrying the team, Tex is very nice, oh, and then there is Soriano...

And the Yanks, well, big hole at 2nd, Jeter's a gamer, and a great guy to have on any team, but he's no Renteria, and at least for now, not even a Young. ARod is incredible, but he's not THAT much better than Rolen, and can't make up for the Ranger's all-around quality. And Giambi's D and streaky play doesn't make for a solid 1st baseman in my opinion.

Just look at individual positions:
1st: Pujols >> Tex > Giambi
2nd: Fonso >> Womack >> whoever the yanks toss in
SS: (the hard one) I would say Renteria > Young > Jeter but that's a hard call... in another year or two I probably would say Young > Renteria > Jeter
3rd: ARod > Rolen > Blalock

So the only position where the Yanks win is 3rd, and it's probably the deepest position as all three are great.

So if we're talking fantasy, I say
StL > Rangers >> Yankees

And the same in non-fantasy.


Sorry to say, I find some severe flaws with your reasoning. Cards and Rangers have better infields NOT including defense? Wow.

Pujols and Rolen better combo than Giambi and A-Rod? A-Rod is arguabley a better hitter than Pujols and Giambi puts up better stats than Rolen. I'm just speaking offense here, keep in mind.

There's been multiple arguments about Jeter and Renteria and who's better and who's not, that they are basically pretty much equal. And I wouldn't call Tony Womack much of an upgrade over somebody like Miguel Cairo. Womack is finding it hard to even keep his job over Marlon Anderson right now. Womack played for what? 3 or 4 teams last year if I'm correct (Arizona, Colorado, Chicago, started this year with Boston and now St. Louis.) Womack is nothing better than what the Yankees throw out there.

And comparing Texas's offense to the Yankees is just asanine right now at least. Maybe in 2, 3 or 4 years when Blalock, Young and Teixiera are perrenial allstars, maybe then you can call them better but a hot start doesn't put them there.

If we go by your reasoning it should look more like this:

1B: Cards, Yanks, Rangers
2B: Rangers, Yanks/Cards equal
3B: Yanks, Cards, Rangers
SS: Yanks/Cards tie, Rangers

I find it hard to say Cards and especially Rangers have better offenses than the Yankees.

If you think jeter is on the same level as renteria, I would check to see if your health insurance covers a CAT scan. You may have a brain tumor or something. I dont even rank Jeter over Young. Ill give you third, ARod is a hell of a player. Ill put the yankees and rangers tied at SS, but that wont be the same at the end of the season. And Jeter is one of the worse fielding shortstops in the game, so you cant claim defense either.
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Sun May 09, 2004 2:35 pm

Please explain to me why Renteria and especially Mike Young are superior offensive players to Jeter.
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