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Lineup Shakeups: Overrated

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Lineup Shakeups: Overrated

Postby G-Man » Fri May 07, 2004 9:09 am

i think that rearranged lineups being indicative of improved player performance is overrated. for example, there is all this hoopla over griffey hitting 5th and "responding" to this by knocking in 5 runs. I agree with managers rearranging lineups to determine the most efficient combination possible to produce the most runs, but I highly question the impact that this has on player performance.

Was Griffey "angered" by having to hit 5th and this prompted his outburst at the plate last night? If he is so accumstomed to hitting 3rd, wouldn't conventional logic say that he would be unfamiliar with his new spot and therefore take a little time to grow into it?

There is prestige associated with hitting 3rd (typically the best pure hitter spot) but does anyone really believe that a lineup change can improve an individual's performance (considering only Hits/OBP)?
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Postby slomo007 » Fri May 07, 2004 9:16 am

I think managers should shake things up somewhat when their team is in a rut. I don't believe in benching proven stars when they're struggling, but I do think changing the lineup around to accomodate the hot hitters is a successful approach.

I don't think the players really think about what spot they are hitting when they are actually at the plate. At that point, it's just them, the pitcher, and the ball. It really shouldn't matter what spot it is in the lineup, their job is to go out there and get a hit, no matter what spot of the lineup it is. That being said, that's why I think it's good to rearrange your lineup, if a player is in an offensive slump, the team needs to minimize its losses by putting him in a spot of less importance. If your 3rd spot is batting .200, chances are good that your team isn't going to win a lot of games, even if that struggling superstar is someone like Griffey or Huff.
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Postby RynMan » Fri May 07, 2004 9:25 am

Have you ever played and hit in the 3 hole? i have and still play fairly competitively and have been in the 3 hole, struggled, and sent down the order over the course of the season. And i can tell you it does make a difference. In the 3 hole, you are expected to produce. In the 6 or 7, you arent and you relax alot more. Aswell as that, you get ALOT more pitches to hit. Its all about taking the pressure of being at the heart of the order off your shoulders, and let you work with it in a slot in the order that will allow you to do so without it affecting the team too badly.
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Postby Steve Kemp » Fri May 07, 2004 11:08 am

why is Chone Figgins hitting 3rd in that stacked lineup?
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Postby G-Man » Fri May 07, 2004 11:22 am

RynMan wrote:Have you ever played and hit in the 3 hole? i have and still play fairly competitively and have been in the 3 hole, struggled, and sent down the order over the course of the season. And i can tell you it does make a difference. In the 3 hole, you are expected to produce. In the 6 or 7, you arent and you relax alot more. Aswell as that, you get ALOT more pitches to hit. Its all about taking the pressure of being at the heart of the order off your shoulders, and let you work with it in a slot in the order that will allow you to do so without it affecting the team too badly.


Thanks for the great feedback and insight Ryn. I was thinking about this - I guess another way to look at it would be the ADDED attention/pressure put on a guy like cruz jr in tampa, who was relegated to hitting 9th due to his struggles. this would almost seem like a snowball effect now that your struggles are openly acknowledged and refelcted by the lineup change but I definitely see your point about lessening the pressure.

I found the comment (I think from rotoworld) interesting where they said that griffey "should have been hitting 5th all along", as if inferring that his success yesterday was atributable to his spot in the lineup.
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Postby RedsRebirth » Fri May 07, 2004 11:30 am

Well, it took some balls for Miley to move Junior to the 5th spot. Hes been in the 3 hole for like 14 years straight! Good move though, hope he stays there for awhile and heats up. When you have your 2-3-4 guys hitting over .300 like the Reds do, why wouldnt you want to hit 5th and get the RBI chances? And if youre Miley, you gotta give the hotter hitters those extra abs.
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Postby slomo007 » Fri May 07, 2004 11:33 am

RedsRebirth wrote:Well, it took some balls for Miley to move Junior to the 5th spot. Hes been in the 3 hole for like 14 years straight! Good move though, hope he stays there for awhile and heats up. When you have your 2-3-4 guys hitting over .300 like the Reds do, why wouldnt you want to hit 5th and get the RBI chances? And if youre Miley, you gotta give the hotter hitters those extra abs.


I agree, if Casey and Dunn are so hot, why not put them 3rd and 4th. IMO, Griffey can't be too upset about it, I mean it's not like Casey and Dunn are scrubs hitting in front of him. He seems like a fairly humble guy, so I don't think he would be offended or hurt by it. As long as guys like Brandon Larson and Javier Valentin are behind him still, Griffey will be fine.
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Postby G-Man » Fri May 07, 2004 12:12 pm

i guess no matter how you try to drill it down to an individual player level, there are still associated factors impacting performance, namely the guys who follow you dictating what kind of pitches you will see. I just find it interesting from the perceived mentality standpoint how a change in the lineup correlates to your "individual output" (basically your OPS).
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Postby jbones733 » Fri May 07, 2004 12:25 pm

Steve Kemp wrote:why is Chone Figgins hitting 3rd in that stacked lineup?


i dont know but he hasnt stole a base since being put there :-P
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Postby Nails » Fri May 07, 2004 3:41 pm

I like Griffey batting 5th behind Dunn, because he will get more some better pitches. Wouldn't you pitch around Dunn if he had the mighty Ryan Freel behind him, or some other scrub. But you put Griffey behind him and pitchers may give Dunn some better pitches.
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