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Give up on Contreras????

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Postby InfinityJones » Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:59 pm

One of the New York papers is reporting that Contreras has complained of concentration problems on the mound. The Red Sox speculate that he is concnerned about his family situation in Cuba.

BTW he also dominated the Tigers last season, and almost no one did that.
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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:01 pm

i am giving him a couple more starts to prove himself (although he remains on my bench). he has good stuff and did well at the end of last year. he isnt going to start against boston every time.
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Postby Great Scott(i)! » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:07 pm

Erboes wrote:That's is a ridiculous post. If a guy has an ERA of 10 against three teams but an ERA of 2.00 against everyone else, then only start him against everyone else. I don't think there's anything complicated about that. Don't drop Contraras or you'll feel really stupid very soon.


The point is that he's done nothing against absolutely no one since he's been in the league.

Nothing.

When you have an ERA of 2.00 (Which isn't what he has) against "everyone else", and "everyone else" consists of the Tigers, D-Rays and Reds - you have a problem. It also illustrates how little big league experiance he has, say, by miracle of God this guy really isn't 38 years old - he still needs another season or two of getting bashed less and less as he learns, to do anything. He has no experiance against this level of hitting (And don't give me this he faced Cuban hitters as good as the guy's he's facing now crap.) and what experiance he does have? He's been shelled against anyone who mattered. When you're a Yankees pitcher, you BEAT THE RED SOX if you do nothing else and he can't even do that!

Hold onto him if you want, but you've been warned.
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Postby Jose Contreras is 72 » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:17 pm

Aside from the fact that he's proven nothing worth noting against any team that mounts any sort of real offensive threat, it's now common knowledge throughout baseball that Contreras tips his pitches. When you know what's coming, chances are you're going to hit it more often than not.

Also, he's 72.

If the Yankees were able to replace him, he'd have already piched his way out of the rotation (yet again). He's virtually untradeable because he's ridiculously overpaid, and there's no reason to believe that he's going to emerge as anything remotely resembling the potential ace that the Yanks and Sox thought they were battling over a year and a half ago.

I'd get him off your roster immediatly, and I thank God he didn't end up in Fenway, where he's gotten shelled every time out.
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Postby Erboes » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:23 pm

Although I love to talk a walk in the land of emotion from time to time, I have to resist doing so now.

Contraras's ERA against Boston: 18.00

Contraras's WHIP against Boston: 3.10

Contrasas's ERA against everyone else: 3.20

Contraras's WHIP against everyone else:1.07

There are two facts here. One, you're not dealing in facts. Two, he's only pitched 82 innings total in the majors, and making any conclusions from it is a bit premature. The guy is a K an inning starting pitcher, and that should be enough to hold onto him at least a bit longer. Even if he can only pitch against weak hitters (the facts don't bare that out by the way) then only start him against weak hitting teams, but for the love that is all good in this game, don't cut him.
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Postby d18Mike » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:17 pm

One of the New York papers is reporting that Contreras has complained of concentration problems on the mound. The Red Sox speculate that he is concnerned about his family situation in Cuba.


This is about the fifth similar Contreras thread in the past week. I understand why.

I have him and I'm afraid he's sunk. Not because he doesn't have dominate stuff, but because he doesn't have his head screwed on.

Note the quote above. If you are a professional pitcher (or even a little leaguer for that matter), you are locked into the game for the period. you are on themound. You don't hear the fans. You certainly aren't thinking about your family at the very instant you are deciding how to pitch to Manny Ramirez. I think that quote is a smoke screen and just the latest in a series from Jose. My favorite? He blamed a recent poor outing against the Sox on the fact that the Yankees gave him "to big of lead" and he lost his concentration. :-°

He always has an excuse.

Remember 90% of the game is half mental.
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Postby rlee » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:02 pm

I would not drop Contreras yet. Remember, it is only April. Lots of time for him to get squared away. The players themselves hate to bat against him, saying his stuff is nasty. And he does get over a K per inning.

Stottlemyre is a good pitching coach and will get him squared away. When the Yankees start hitting, he'll look even better. ;-)
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Postby Great Scott(i)! » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:38 pm

Erboes wrote:Although I love to talk a walk in the land of emotion from time to time, I have to resist doing so now.


Right. :-° Anyway...

Erboes wrote:Contraras's ERA against Boston: 18.00

Contraras's WHIP against Boston: 3.10

Contrasas's ERA against everyone else: 3.20

Contraras's WHIP against everyone else:1.07


Most important question about your dominate facts, my good man - who constitutes "everyone". ChiSox, Tigers, D-Rays and Reds? Look out now. Or is this just the 2004 season? Or 2003? Lets be more clear with your facts, please.

Erboes wrote:There are two facts here. One, you're not dealing in facts.


Who isn't dealing with facts? My opinion is based soley on facts and what I've actually seen (On TV and in person) what he can do.

Erboes wrote:Two, he's only pitched 82 innings total in the majors, and making any conclusions from it is a bit premature.


Something I noted, as the fact that he has little to no experiance with hitters of this level and even if he is for real, needs more time. Thank you for restating my thoughts. Also, if it's too soon to be making any conclusions - why are you?

Erboes wrote:The guy is a K an inning starting pitcher


And nearly a walk per inning starting pitcher.

Erboes wrote: Even if he can only pitch against weak hitters (the facts don't bare that out by the way)


Yes they do, in eight part harmony. From what limited exposure he has, he's sucked against teams that matter. Who wants a pitcher who can only beat who sucks? Great for the playoffs, that is. If you make it there.

Erboes wrote:but for the love that is all good in this game, don't cut him


A good, dramatic (albeit pointless) ending.
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Postby rjforlife » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:42 pm

wait to see contreras next start after not tipping pitches and see how he does.
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Postby Jose Contreras is 72 » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:45 pm

Erboes wrote:Although I love to talk a walk in the land of emotion from time to time, I have to resist doing so now.


Not even entirely sure what that psuedo-intellectual babble is supposed to mean.


Erboes wrote:Contraras's ERA against Boston: 18.00

Contraras's WHIP against Boston: 3.10

Contrasas's ERA against everyone else: 3.20

Contraras's WHIP against everyone else:1.07


I encourage you to look up the box scores for, well, all of those non-Boston appearances, then report back to me when you find one solid one against a team anyone considers a major offensive threat that wasn't just playing out the season, a team that wasn't injury riddled, or a team that was not historically bad.

The facts those statistics will "bear out" will in fact prove.........

Contreras against teams that will ever amount to anything = atrocious

Contreras against the beaten down, mediocre and terrible = well above average

Erboes wrote:There are two facts here. One, you're not dealing in facts. Two, he's only pitched 82 innings total in the majors, and making any conclusions from it is a bit premature.


There are actually three facts here - you're overlooking the FACT that Contreras has yet to look anything more than mediocre, the fact that his numbers are, in fact, somewhat inflated by the mop-up work he did last year (and his starts against terrible teams), the FACT that every major sports network has thoroughly documented how he tips his pitches to the point where I can call them while half drunk in a bar, and the FACT that you've ignored intangibles when digging up statistical information to try and back your doomed case.

Actually, there's a 4th fact. He qualifies for AARP benefits due to his advanced age.

Erboes wrote: The guy is a K an inning starting pitcher, and that should be enough to hold onto him at least a bit longer. Even if he can only pitch against weak hitters (the facts don't bare that out by the way) then only start him against weak hitting teams, but for the love that is all good in this game, don't cut him.


The guy has racked up a K an inning - against the likes of Detroit, Cincy, Toronto, etc. and out of the pen in games that were decided well before he entered them and/or where starting positional players had been replaced. Many also came after September 1st, meaning he faced a ton of batters with little or no big league experience. Calling him a "K an inning starting pitcher" is as premature as it is incorrect.

Contreras might be the most overrated AND overaged "prospect" in recent memory.
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