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WAR IS STARTING

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Postby Amnorix » Mon Mar 24, 2003 9:38 am

First, I wish to reiterate Menyak's valid point -- no Scuds have been confirmed as having been fired. Obviously, the Bush Administration is looking for as much additional justification for the war as they can as we wage this war. So far, not much has been found or used against us that supports our claims for the necessity of the war. No Scuds fired. No chem/bio weapons used against us, etc. Frankly, it will be an international embarrassment if we fail to find anything after we take the whole place, so here's hoping we do find something.

I note that we found/captured a plant of some sort yesterday, which may have been involved in the production of chem/bio weapons. We'll see what turns up there. Frankly, if they have such weapons, I'm rather shocked they haven't used them against us, considering that I don't exactly base much faith on Saddam's humanitarianism.
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Postby Amnorix » Mon Mar 24, 2003 9:45 am

Hootie: It is rather axiomatic that all countries, and individuals, act with their own interests at heart. Not universally true, of course, but as a general statement it's true. The US leadership is on shaky moral grounds when both the President and VP have close ties to the oil industry. The VP was formerly CEO of Halliburton, a multibillion dollar international conglomerate, a unit of which is expected to profit most handsomely from postwar reconstruction activities in Iraq.

I'm not saying that the President, or VP, would do all this just to help their own interests, but rather that your claims about the Germans and French don't hold water very well when the exact same types of arguments can be used quite successfully about our own leaders.
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Postby Amnorix » Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:04 am

MetsFan: Thank you for the compliment. Your own positions are well-reasoned and well-stated, and offer an interesting perspective.

First, obviously, anyone that doesn't support our soldiers in quickly winning this war and returning home safely as soon as possible is on the lunatic fringe.

I think we can all agree that, as a general rule, totalitarianism and dictatorships are bad. I don't pretend to have answers to all of the questions raised by this war, so I'll limit myself to a brief statement regarding the issues I have, and continue to have.

Why are we fighting this war, and why are we fighting it now?

If it's to help the oppressed people of Iraq, who have no voting rights, etc. Then why are we stopping at Iraq's borders? The vast majority of the Arabic world has a monarchial form of government in which the citizenry do not vote, oppression is rampant, and women have few if any rights whatsoever.

If it's because Iraq has materially assisted Al Queda in their attacks against us, then (1) why hasn't proof been given to the American populace and the world so we can all see it, and (2) why aren't we attacking the other areas of the world that have assisted Al Queda, including significant parts of Indonesia, etc?

While I'm quite certain this war will be won, and hopefully won quickly, the problems that *result* from this war may be far worse than having left the whole situation as it was. First, the occupation of a country the size of California is going to make our occupation of such areas as Beirut and Mogadishu look like a cakewalk. Second, we are right now encouraging young Muslims to sign on with their local terrorist group. Sowing the seeds of increased racial hatred by millions of people around the world isn't what I call clever diplomacy.

There are two axis of debate, I think. First, how can you justify a war where (1) you have not been attacked, and (2) there is no international sanction? Second, will this war, in the long run, increase or decrease our security? President Bush thinks Pax Americana can be enforced by the use of force, rather than the threat of it. I fear he (and by extension, America) will be proven incorrect.
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Postby Guest » Mon Mar 24, 2003 12:50 pm

I think the difference between Iraq and these other potential threat nations is the fact that Iraq has violated the terms of the cease fire for 12 years. We are well within our right to take them out on that fact alone.
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Postby Amnorix » Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:55 pm

Guest: So let me confirm -- it's your view that the United States is allowed to enforce the violation of an international body's resolution, even if that same international body refuses to sanction such enforcement? Bit of a gap in logic, no?
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Postby metsfan1969 » Tue Mar 25, 2003 1:02 am

Anonymous wrote:I think the difference between Iraq and these other potential threat nations is the fact that Iraq has violated the terms of the cease fire for 12 years. We are well within our right to take them out on that fact alone.


Let's see. If you and I were working together, and for 12 years you let me make all the decisions, what makes you think that after all that time I would start letting you make any?

Silence=acceptance

Is there a book of rights out there I am not familiar with, with a chapter labeled "How to tolerate bad behavior from oil rich countries for great lengths of time and then blow them up".

Please dear guest, make an argument, voice an intelligent, reasoned opinion. Leave the excuses at the door. We value your opinion, but please think before you post.

Oh, and at the risk of dating myself terribly, go pick up a copy of "I feel like I'm fixin to die rag" by Country Joe and the Fish. It may give you some perspective.
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Postby Danks81 » Tue Mar 25, 2003 1:58 am

Lol (well tempered laughter) that is a GREAT song. Ever see the Woodstock documentary, with the bouncing white ball?
"I tried to hit a 1,000-foot homer. I went down on the ground and wasn't the same after that."
- Henry Rodriguez
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Postby metsfan1969 » Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:14 am

Are you kidding?

".....and it's one, two, three what are we fighting for
don't ask me, I don't give a damn
next stop...Viet-nam

and it's five, six, seven open up the pearly gates
I ain't got time to wonder why, Whoopee we're all gonna die."

Everybody, sing along...... :,-(
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