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WAR IS STARTING

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Postby Guest » Sat Mar 22, 2003 9:16 pm

(post deleted by menyak)
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Postby menyak » Sat Mar 22, 2003 9:38 pm

Dear poster without a name, since I dislike having a discussion like this with someone who doesn't care to provide me with a name, I have taken the liberty (or should I say freedom?) to help myself. I will call you "Dave" from now on - if you prefer a different name, please let me know and I will adapt to it immediately.

Dave, I would like to remind you that we do not tolerate racist or otherwise offensive remarks on these boards. Thank you!
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Postby Danks81 » Sun Mar 23, 2003 3:07 am

Well done Menyak
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Postby cardboardbox » Sun Mar 23, 2003 7:51 pm

I thought it was cool that registration wasnt required... now i'm not so sure....

those that criticize the French for being anti war and think that they will lose millions (i hope you mean billions) because of this war need to come up with some proof of that. Its amazing how many things get tossed around with no backing. US/UK oil companies are the biggest winners in this war. They will negotiate extrememly favorable deals with the puppet govt we install that will last decades and leave the Iraqi people with fractions of a penny on each dollar of that money.

We have alienated our friends and inflamed our enemies. Its a sad, depressing world we live in.

Bush = suck
Hussein = suck
war = suck

Bush's war against Hussein = suck^3
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Postby Amnorix » Sun Mar 23, 2003 11:20 pm

The fact remains that war is the last resort. In this case, it is a necessary resort.


And therein lies the rub. Many, many Americans (the polls are all over the place on this), and certainly the vast majority of the world agree with your first statement, and very much disagree with your second statement.

In my view, the main problem with this war is that, philosophically at least, the "case" made against Iraq could be made with roughly equivalent "success" again Iran, North Korea and Syria, and perhaps some other countries. All of them have, or may soon have, weapons of mass destruction. All of them may be supporting Al Queda (or similar terrorist groups), and all of them represent about the same threat to America and the regional stability of the area of the world in which they are in.

Are we to go take them all out? Shall we install democracies in these countries, which have never known democracy before also?

Nobody is "for" Saddam Hussein (except maybe some radical Muslim elements). It is these questions, arising in the context of a war without international sanction of any sort, that are highly disturbing. And the fact that it is highly disturbing to the rest of the world, is also disturbing. America has lost much of its claim to moral superiority in waging this war. These are the basic problems of the intelligent protestors (those who mindlessly chant "war is bad" are just simplistic and naive).

Finally, those who argue that Bush doesn't have the authority to enter this war because he wasn't really elected President, really need to move on from that. Yes it sucks if you're a Democrat, as I am. Yes we could wish that Florida didn't have it's head up its @#%*. Yes, perhaps it's not fair in many respects. Nonetheless, the Constitution mandates the electoral college, and we must live with it with all it's attributes, both wonderful and woeful. Focus your energies on 2004, not 2000.
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Postby metsfan1969 » Mon Mar 24, 2003 12:02 am

Amnorix, I commend you on your eloquence and Shakespearean wit. (this is not sarcasm).

Lest people forget....many people, many nations, many races were affected on 9/11. The kind of totalitarianism and dictatorship that we fight today lies at the very foundation of this terrorism.

I am not for killing innocent people (although I do work in a Mall :-[ ) but I am for helping people be free of tyranny and strife. If I were 20 now instead of 42, I would be there fighting for my family and my nation. I hope that they would be proud of me for doing it.

I remember signing up for the draft when I turned 18. I had to walk past friends of mine from school who were protesting outside the building. I remember wondering why anyone would be reluctant to fight for freedom if given the chance.

I still wonder that today as well.

I post these definitions not because I think anybody here is dumb, but because of how dumb everybody should think these things are.


to·tal·i·tar·i·an·ism
Pronunciation: (")tO-"ta-l&-'ter-E-&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1926
1 : centralized control by an autocratic authority
2 : the political concept that the citizen should be totally subject to an absolute state authority

dic·ta·tor·ship
Pronunciation: dik-'tA-t&r-"ship, 'dik-"
Function: noun
Date: 1542
1 : the office of dictator
2 : autocratic rule, control, or leadership
3 a : a form of government in which absolute power is concentrated in a dictator or a small clique b :[b] a government organization or group in which absolute power is so concentrated [/b]c : a despotic state

Ask yourself how well you would function under these above conditions. Ask yourself if you would fight back. Then go watch the news.
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Postby HOOTIE » Mon Mar 24, 2003 12:03 am

You think France or Germany has the US interests at heart? No, they have their own interests in mind. I dont have a report to document, but last week Foxnews were talking about France oil deals with Saddam. Email them for documentation. Of course France doesnt want Saddam gone, they lose billions in the process. Look, Iraq broke 17 UN resolutions, Saddam was given 48 hours to leave, but they refused. Btw, anyone notice the SCUD missiles Iraq has been firing? Yet they told the world they had no weapons. Of course this means little to those fanatics in the streets getting arrested.
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Postby Danks81 » Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:01 am

The use/possession of the Scuds violates the original Gulf War Peace Treaty. The fact that Saddam had possessed them already justifies this war.
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Postby menyak » Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:43 am

To me it's not really a matter if this war is justified or not. From a law & order point of view, I can certainly see this justification (although one could also argue against it ;-) ).

The problem is that this situation is just incredibly complicated, and I sometimes wonder if those who are so clearly for the war see this point. There are a couple of pros, sure, but the cons are just overwhelming.

Every day this war wages, every day Americans fight Muslims on Arab soil, it creates more resentment, more potential terrorists and destabilizes those governments in the region that aren't anti-American (yet). Sure, Saddam is a potential terrorist threat, but taking him out doesn't reduce the overall threat, it makes it worse (because it causes so much more damage on the way). Among the many, many - MANY desastrous szenarios that will hopefully NOT accompany this war, I would just like to mention that Pakistan already has A-bombs (and I thank god that it's not a democracy). To my knowledge, the best guarantee that they will not fall into the hands of radical minds is the current President Musharraf, a dictator. The notion alone that the Iraq war in its consequences might ultimately spark an Islamic revolution in Pakistan would have prevented me from starting the war under these terms.

For me it's the first time since the Cold War that I can faintly imagine how a third World War would start and what it could look like. An awfully remote possibility, sure - but Jesus, was that really necessary?
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Postby menyak » Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:53 am

[Just for reference: not a single SCUD missile has been fired yet - at least it hasn't been confirmed. It has been announced several times by the media, just to be corrected later on. Not that it matters or disproves anything - just for the record.]
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