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Postby afromangettindrunk » Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:53 pm

im a die-hard yankee hater B-)

have been my whole life ;-D

yeah but cleveland is young they are alright.
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:06 pm

Ok....

First of all, maybe we complain that our team is doing bad because we JUST ADDED FREAKIN A-ROD, SHEFF, KEVIN BROWN AND VAZQUEZ this offseason. Maybe because WE are going to see the games this year and walking away dissapointed. We are used to winning so obviously we are complaing.

Number 2, how can you call us Dallas fans frontrunners when we completely sucked since 1996? I've been one since I was little because my dad was one. I live in CT thus I am a Yankee fan my whole life. And I am a NY Knick fan, not a Laker fan. Don't call me a frontrunner, please.

P.S.: I was joking about Randy and Morris. I picked them because they are high profile players in contract years. God, take a joke.
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Postby jeffc_76 » Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:07 pm

thetongueofire wrote:not to nitpick but dont you think that the the current Yankees linup (and the whole team prolly)is better than the Yankees of a few years ago... its just that some of the teams that every team in their division has gotten better... and i don't know of Stienbrenner knows this or not- but you can't just go out and buy a player everytime you need one. plus the Yankees have very little trade bait except for Navarro... no one wants Lofton


Whether or not they're better than previous teams remains to be seen, but if you're trying to win it all you should at least have a marginal player at every position. Compare Enrique Wilson to other starting 2B in the league and he has to be in the bottom 5, maybe even dead last. No doubt the division as a whole has gotten stronger but that will really only affect the wild card race (which is inherently unfair btw).

The Red Sox did at least as much "buying" this offseason. Most of our big aquisitions actually came in trades (e.g. A-Rod for Soriano and prospects, Vazquez for Nick Johnson, Brown for Weaver). We "bought" Sheffield and Lofton. Those players we gave up weren't exactly slouches, with the exception of Weaver who is the embodiment of human garbage. I think Steinbrenner is aware that free agency is just one tool among many in building a good team.

1B Giambi - FA
2B **
3B A-Rod - trade (Soriano->A-Rod
SS Jeter - home grown
C Posada - home grown
LF Matsui - scouted international
CF - B. Williams- home grown
RF - Sheffield - FA

Mussina - FA
Brown - trade (Lily->Weaver->Brown)
Vazquez - trade (N. Johnson -> Vazquez)
Contreras - scouted international
Lieber *

M. Rivera - scouted international
P. Quantrill - FA
T. Gordan - FA

So among a list of regulars, 6 have been homegrown or directly/indirectly acquired in a trade of home grown players. 3 are on the team because the organization has gone the extra mile of recruiting international talent. 5 are FA signings over the years from within MLB. I would guess this is actually the highest the ratio of FA to home grown players has been in a long time. The 4 championship teams of the past 10 years had even more players developed within the system. Buying players is hardly a guarantee for success. The Mets, Dodgers, Orioles, etc. have been spending a lot of money with little success. The Red Sox have spent a ton of money and have had some really good teams as of late but none have sealed the deal. Steinbrenner has surrounded himself with some pretty good baseball people. In the most difficult sport to make the playoffs, we haven't missed them since 1993. As a Yankees fan, it's fairly obvious that a lot of the resentment toward Steinbrenner is nothing more than simple envy. For better or worse, no other owner wants to win as much as he does. They may not admit it, but every real fan wishes their team had an owner with that same drive.
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:21 pm

I'm pretty sick of hearing how the Yankees don't bring any of their players up homegrown. How many players have the Redsox brought up by themselves exactly. Let's take a look:

C- Jason Varitek --Aquired via trade with Seattle
1B- David Ortiz -- FA
2B- Pokey Reese -- FA
3B- Bill Mueller -- FA
SS- Nomar Garciaparra -- Homegrown
LF- Manny Ramirez -- FA
CF- Johnny Damon -- FA
RF- Trot Nixon -- Homegrown

SP- Pedro Martinez -- FA
SP- Curt Schilling -- Aquired via trade with Arizona
SP- Derek Lowe -- Aquired via trade with Seattle
SP- Tim Wakefield -- Came up with Pittsburgh
SP- Byung-Hyun Kim -- Aquired via trade with Arizona

CP- Kieth Foulke -- FA

Don't anyone ever give me this crap about Yankees have to spend money because they can't produce their own players.
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Postby Nomar4prez » Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:43 pm

ajgdrummer7 wrote:I'm pretty sick of hearing how the Yankees don't bring any of their players up homegrown. How many players have the Redsox brought up by themselves exactly. Let's take a look:

C- Jason Varitek --Aquired via trade with Seattle
1B- David Ortiz -- FA
2B- Pokey Reese -- FA
3B- Bill Mueller -- FA
SS- Nomar Garciaparra -- Homegrown
LF- Manny Ramirez -- FA
CF- Johnny Damon -- FA
RF- Trot Nixon -- Homegrown

SP- Pedro Martinez -- FA
SP- Curt Schilling -- Aquired via trade with Arizona
SP- Derek Lowe -- Aquired via trade with Seattle
SP- Tim Wakefield -- Came up with Pittsburgh
SP- Byung-Hyun Kim -- Aquired via trade with Arizona

CP- Kieth Foulke -- FA

Don't anyone ever give me this crap about Yankees have to spend money because they can't produce their own players.


Ya, but Varitek, Ortiz, Reese, Mueller, Lowe, Wakefield weren't MVP(Cy Young) type players when we signed them. We "developed" them into better ballplayers when they were on OUR team.

Hmmm....
Arod= MVP
Sheffield= In the running for MVP
Giambi= Same as above^
Brown= Always in the Cy Young race

I could also argue for Vazquez, but his numbers weren't great b/c he played in Montreal. I'm not complaining either, just showing some faults in your argument.
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Postby mikcou » Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:47 pm

ajgdrummer7 wrote:I'm pretty sick of hearing how the Yankees don't bring any of their players up homegrown. How many players have the Redsox brought up by themselves exactly. Let's take a look:

C- Jason Varitek --Aquired via trade with Seattle
1B- David Ortiz -- FA
2B- Pokey Reese -- FA
3B- Bill Mueller -- FA
SS- Nomar Garciaparra -- Homegrown
LF- Manny Ramirez -- FA
CF- Johnny Damon -- FA
RF- Trot Nixon -- Homegrown

SP- Pedro Martinez -- FA
SP- Curt Schilling -- Aquired via trade with Arizona
SP- Derek Lowe -- Aquired via trade with Seattle
SP- Tim Wakefield -- Came up with Pittsburgh
SP- Byung-Hyun Kim -- Aquired via trade with Arizona

CP- Kieth Foulke -- FA

Don't anyone ever give me this crap about Yankees have to spend money because they can't produce their own players.


Varitek wasnt even a major league player yet when he was traded so he wasnt drafted by us but he is still partially homegrown...
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Postby jeffc_76 » Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:20 pm

Nomar4prez wrote:Ya, but Varitek, Ortiz, Reese, Mueller, Lowe, Wakefield weren't MVP(Cy Young) type players when we signed them. We "developed" them into better ballplayers when they were on OUR team.

Hmmm....
Arod= MVP
Sheffield= In the running for MVP
Giambi= Same as above^
Brown= Always in the Cy Young race

I could also argue for Vazquez, but his numbers weren't great b/c he played in Montreal. I'm not complaining either, just showing some faults in your argument.


Schilling, Martinez (NL Cy Young), Ramirez, and Foulke were all stars before ever coming to Boston. Damon was pretty close too. Boston plays the same game as NY - trying to win by aggressively pursuing all outlets, and is off to a nice start this year doing just that. You can't have it both ways though and cry foul when NY has done it better.
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Postby Apollo » Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:56 pm

The thing is, though, when the Yanks DO have homegrown players, they have them forever. If Cleveland has a homegrown player (Manny Ramirez, Albert Belle, Jim Thome, Bartolo Colon), they have them for maybe 5 or 6 years and then they lose them to free agency. The Yankees can build a team with homegrown players because they spend the money to keep them around forever. If the Indians had brought up Jeter, Posada, and Bernie Williams, they would have lost them (probably to the Yankees) a long time ago.

That's the problem with the "well, we brought up our players" argument. Because you're still paying the money to keep them around, something that other teams can't do.
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Postby jeffc_76 » Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:14 pm

Apollo wrote:That's the problem with the "well, we brought up our players" argument. Because you're still paying the money to keep them around, something that other teams can't do.


Or is it that they choose not to? Where are all those revenue sharing and luxury tax checks going these days? A salary cap's an ugly solution, just look at the NFL and their (hippie, commie) system. You can basically pull teams out of a hat each year to see who will make the playoffs. There's no continuity whatsoever and as a fan, you see players get drafted and then most are long gone just a few years later if they end up any good. And I'm not saying that because my team's been hurt by it, if anything they've benefited. But the Bills would manage to stink it up in any system :,-( I just think it's unfortunate that the days of the great teams (49ers, Cowboys of the 80's-90's) are basically over. They couldn't possibly keep those teams together today.
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Postby AcidRock23 » Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:20 pm

It IS fun to speculate but, at their current rates, neither Arod nor Sheffield-- in whom I have a vested, fantasy interest- appear likely to be in the running for MVP. While Arod and Sheff have been awesome in the past, I'd say it's a little premature at this point. I will not be dumping Sheff for a while though!!

For the team though, if you move the Yankees .444 winning percentage to the other divisions, they'd be in 4th in the AL Central and West, 3rd in the NL east and west and LAST in the NL Central. It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out as the teams diversify their opponents a bit more.
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