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Postby King Tim » Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:06 am

There are rumors he is tipping pitches. He will figure it out and be studly again.
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Re: Zito

Postby LBJackal » Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:54 am

GSes wrote:
davus wrote:find his picture in the dictionary next to the entry for "overrated".

:-t


you have no idea wut ur talking about. Zito is hardley overrated.

I DONT get how any of you can make judgments on players after 3 weeks?

Obviouslt you are new to the cafe, we have had COUNTLESS threads/discussions as to why Zito is not overrated.


Sorry to all with Zito avatars or A's avatars, but I'm afraid Zito is over-rated. K rate dropped, he's allowing more hits, and he's getting shelled. Many predicted it, including myself. He's allowing more hits, and more balls into play by not getting K's, and he's paying the price. Just keep saying "He's a former Cy Young winner, he CAN'T be over-rated".

32 hits in 23 innings this year.......and only 14 K's. The ERA isn't the real indicator here, even though it's terrible. It's the extremely high WHIP and very low K/9 that worry me. I'd honestly take Loaiza over Zito. And many other pitchers, which I'm sure all these A's-avatar guys would disagree with. In fact, I'm pretty sure before the season I said "Esteban Loaiza could easily have a better season than Barry Zito" and got flamed for it. Who's laughing now?

The natural reaction is denial.........time to move on to acceptance...... ;-)
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Postby Members Only Jackets » Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:57 am

Oh great...the year I finally get Mussina & Zito I instead get
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Re: Zito

Postby GSes » Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:06 am

LBJackal wrote:
GSes wrote:
davus wrote:find his picture in the dictionary next to the entry for "overrated".

:-t


you have no idea wut ur talking about. Zito is hardley overrated.

I DONT get how any of you can make judgments on players after 3 weeks?

Obviouslt you are new to the cafe, we have had COUNTLESS threads/discussions as to why Zito is not overrated.


Sorry to all with Zito avatars or A's avatars, but I'm afraid Zito is over-rated. K rate dropped, he's allowing more hits, and he's getting shelled. Many predicted it, including myself. He's allowing more hits, and more balls into play by not getting K's, and he's paying the price. Just keep saying "He's a former Cy Young winner, he CAN'T be over-rated".

32 hits in 23 innings this year.......and only 14 K's. The ERA isn't the real indicator here, even though it's terrible. It's the extremely high WHIP and very low K/9 that worry me. I'd honestly take Loaiza over Zito. And many other pitchers, which I'm sure all these A's-avatar guys would disagree with. In fact, I'm pretty sure before the season I said "Esteban Loaiza could easily have a better season than Barry Zito" and got flamed for it. Who's laughing now?

The natural reaction is denial.........time to move on to acceptance...... ;-)


U kno Jackal. You never learn. We had a huge thread on the zito topic where I thought I presented a strong case as to why zito is not in a decline.

Your other statement that he is getting shelled and his ratios are horrible?

ITS BEEN 3 FUC*ing weeks! Arod numbers are horrible, as our Delgado.........They are overrated and declining also.

Jackal come on, and dont give me the I told you so crap. ITS BEEN 3 WEEKS.

And btw, Loazia still has not prooven crap to me. He will have to keep it up until about July before I believe him.
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Postby LBJackal » Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:19 am

What is this "strong case" you keep talking about?

Loaiza has been better than Zito over the past 12 months. Doesn't matter to me if you don't believe in him; I've been dealing with people like you all off-season, but most of them have shut up since Loaiza is proving them wrong.

It's not 3 weeks that I'm basing this on. It's the entire 2003 season, and his first 4 starts this year. How long will he have to continue to decline before you admit it? Too long IMO.........which is why I'm going to stop trying to convince you. The stats will speak for themselves.

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Postby osb » Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:35 am

as far as zito is concerned.... I THINK he is overrated... my opinion... so why jump on people because their opinions may not match up with yours? regardless of what you or i think, points can be made either way... zito has been mediocre since winning the cy young, maybe not in your world, but in the fantasy leagues i play in, he's been mediocre and inconsistent, he went from 23-5 to 14-12... how can that not indicate being overrated when he likely was drafted much higher than other players with similar records... each of the last three seasons his K's have decreased steadily, while his innings have increased over the same amount of time... true, his era and whip are respectable, but that doesn't really matter much in h2h points leagues in which success is predicated upon K and win totals... he was a stud TWO seasons ago, which greatly inflated his draft status... did he do anything to live up to that draft status? NO... hence he's overrated... as far as this season goes, i've still seen him go way higher than many other players with similar numbers AND potential... many people STILL see him as a top five SP... hell, cbssportsline has him 6th in their preseason rankings!!! ahead of hudson, mulder, halladay, vazquez, and oswalt... i'm sorry, but i'd take any of those guys and more ahead of zito... jmo
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Postby LBJackal » Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:05 am

Well, I don't see a strong case at all. His K's are greatly declining, his wins are greatly declining, his losses are greatly increasing, he's doing terrible this year with respect to just about everything, and he is allowing many more people to put the ball in play by not being able to strike them out. Just because Tim Hudson can be effective wiht low K's doesn't mean Zito can. His BAA will greatly increase this year unless he learns to K people.

You can frantically search for reasons why he will be fine, such as comparing his previuos seasons' HR allowed and slugging %, but he isn't that good. Just face it. There are many, many pitchers better than him. And plenty who are drafted well after him.

Realistically, here's what I see form Zito this year: 15-13, 3.85 ERA, 1.30 WHIP, 135 K's. Nothing special. He's not the type of guy who will get a lot of K's, or wins, and I don't think his ratios will stay as low as they have in recent years. He's mediocre. Brad Penny, Matt Clement, Carlos Zambrano, Kip Wells, Mark Redman, CC Sabathia, and tons of other SP's will probably put up similar numbers. Yet Zito is seen as an elite SP because he won the Cy Young 2 years ago.......
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Postby GSes » Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:11 am

OK Jackal will see.

Zito is not in the low class of some of those pitchers you mentioned. In fact that down right pissed me off, but you are enitlted to your oppinion.

What do I think Zito can do this season

17-10
3.15 ERA
1.15 WHIP
150 K's

By the way, he is capable of more then that IMO.
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Postby HOOTIE » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:15 pm

Zito only went 14-12 last year, but it was far from mediocre. His 129 ERA+ was better then his ERA+ in his 17-8 season in 01. While he's likely not the guy who posted 2 previous 169+ ERA+ seasons, he's a little better then the term mediocre i see being thrown around.

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Postby CubsFan7724 » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:26 pm

LBJackal wrote:Well, I don't see a strong case at all. His K's are greatly declining, his wins are greatly declining, his losses are greatly increasing, he's doing terrible this year with respect to just about everything, and he is allowing many more people to put the ball in play by not being able to strike them out. Just because Tim Hudson can be effective wiht low K's doesn't mean Zito can. His BAA will greatly increase this year unless he learns to K people.

You can frantically search for reasons why he will be fine, such as comparing his previuos seasons' HR allowed and slugging %, but he isn't that good. Just face it. There are many, many pitchers better than him. And plenty who are drafted well after him.

Realistically, here's what I see form Zito this year: 15-13, 3.85 ERA, 1.30 WHIP, 135 K's. Nothing special. He's not the type of guy who will get a lot of K's, or wins, and I don't think his ratios will stay as low as they have in recent years. He's mediocre. Brad Penny, Matt Clement, Carlos Zambrano, Kip Wells, Mark Redman, CC Sabathia, and tons of other SP's will probably put up similar numbers. Yet Zito is seen as an elite SP because he won the Cy Young 2 years ago.......

I really think Penny, Zambrano, Clement and Sabathia will put up better numbers than those. Id rather have these guys than Zito. Zito I think is overrated fantasy wise, but I wouldnt mind having him as a 2nd or 3rd starter on a real baseball team.
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