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Postby LetsPlay2 » Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:45 am

"I love how people dislike him cause he seems a certain way after they read or hear a few comments about him. Most of them are taken out of context, read the whole story don't dislike him cause of a couple sentences and that is how you make up your mind. All of you people think you know him just cause of his clippings you read from the press, you should really know better."

Not to get too philosophical but....
This statement says do not judge someone by a few pieces of information about them yet it does just that to anyone who says he dislikes Bonds. Why are you so quick to assume that those who dislike Bonds are such simpletons that they do so based on a couple out-of-context quotes? Is it possible that they have seen a clear and uninterrupted pattern of statements and behavior coming from Bonds for the past 15 years that lead them to that assessment...that they have heard teammates publicly confirm that those statements are consistent with how he treats people while not on the field? I'm not saying it's OK to then positively say "Bonds is such an idiot" although I suspect it's a lazy or shorthand way of saying "when compared to the population as a whole, Bonds exhibits many more less desireable traits than most others."


"None of you know him and how can you judge him on anything, w/ out even being close to walking in his shoes."

The above statement sets a standard that makes it impossible to ever reach an opinion on the character of a person. Most likely none of us will ever be close to walking in President Bush's shoes, but I would hope we all have opinions on his character and by extension his policies.

Just so this is a baseball related post:
Jose Acevedo will have a breakout season.
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Postby LetsPlay2 » Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:58 am

"And if it does happen, the only number I care about is Babe Ruth's. Because as a left-handed hitter, I wiped him out"

Maybe I am just not seeing it, but what is so bad about that statement? Aren't sports supposed to be comptetive?


First -- As I said earlier, if you think I think that "left-handed" means "left-handed" you'd be mistaken.

Second -- Some may take it as disrespectful to say "don't talk about him (Ruth) no more" (that part of the quote was left out) since if someone passes Bonds it wouldn't be appropriate to then say "don't talk about him (Bonds) no more." Perhaps if it's a 1-on-1 boxing match then that language is in the spirit of competition, but since Ruth was dead before Bonds began his own career the same doesn't hold.

Third -- Adam Dunn is tearing it up
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Postby LetsPlay2 » Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:34 am

The house that Ruth built ... "Yankee Stadium"
circa 1923
Left field .................301'
Right field ................296' with a 4' wall

The House that Barry built ... formerly "Pac Bell"
Left field ................ 335'
Right field ............... 307' with a fricking 48' wall.


You may be right but these #s are insanely misleading. How many home runs are pulled right down the line by power hitters? Just anecdotally I suspect it's considerably lower than 20%. How many are opposite field homers right down the line? Again, anecdotally I suspect this # is considerably less than 10%. So let's tackle the "pulled down the line" #s. Since both Bonds and Ruth were/are left-handed that would be right field. The difference there is 11' (that will make a difference but not that much considering the short distance disparity and the percentage of homers pulled right down the line). Now let's consider the "opposite field down the line" #s. That's a 34' difference which is definitely a factor (but the relatively low # of shots hit opposite field down the line lessens the importance). Still, right now I would say that old Yankee Stadium was considerably more home run friendly and conjectures about how many fewer Ruth would hit in Pac Bell or how many more Bonds would hit in old Yankee Stadium are definitely warranted.

HOWEVER

Here are the dimensions for the rest of old Yankee Stadium (1923):

Short Right Center: 350' (353' today)
Deepest Right Center: 429' (385' now)
Center: 487' (408' now)
Deepest Left Center: 500' (399' now) shortened to 490' in 1924
Short Left Center: 395' (379 now)

http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/american/yankee.htm

So as you can see, when you consider the entire field, it could be argued that Ruth would have hit more/fewer in Pac Bell just as easily as it could be argued that Bonds would have hit more/fewer in old Yankee Stadium.

I do realize that my anecdotal percentages at the top are just that...anecdotal not scientific. However I think the main point is no less valid.
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Postby timely » Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:42 am

comparing old timers and current players is just ridiculous.
The pitchers have evolved as well as the batters, technology, training, diet, etc. The 2 games are worlds apart. They both shine in their own era.

You may as well compare jesse owens to carl lewis or fangio to schumacher. It really is ridiculous discussion. Dozens of convincing arguments could be made for both sides, but none of them provable nto any substantial degree.

I wonder how Wilt chamberlain would play against Shaq and Yao Ming?
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Postby LetsPlay2 » Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:00 am

Wilt Chamberlain's #s are so far out of reach by any of today's centers.

His dedication, perserverance, training regimen, never say die attitude, and suave repartee with the ladies make his #s untouchable.

Oh......basketball numbers.....never mind. Agreed.
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Postby wrveres » Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:31 am

Third -- Adam Dunn is tearing it up


lol ...

ouch !!! :-)
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Postby timely » Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:39 am

aaaaargh....you had me goin there Letsplay2.
Very nice!
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Postby hybrid » Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:35 am

LetsPlay2 wrote:"I love how people dislike him cause he seems a certain way after they read or hear a few comments about him. Most of them are taken out of context, read the whole story don't dislike him cause of a couple sentences and that is how you make up your mind. All of you people think you know him just cause of his clippings you read from the press, you should really know better."

Not to get too philosophical but....
This statement says do not judge someone by a few pieces of information about them yet it does just that to anyone who says he dislikes Bonds. Why are you so quick to assume that those who dislike Bonds are such simpletons that they do so based on a couple out-of-context quotes? Is it possible that they have seen a clear and uninterrupted pattern of statements and behavior coming from Bonds for the past 15 years that lead them to that assessment...that they have heard teammates publicly confirm that those statements are consistent with how he treats people while not on the field? I'm not saying it's OK to then positively say "Bonds is such an idiot" although I suspect it's a lazy or shorthand way of saying "when compared to the population as a whole, Bonds exhibits many more less desireable traits than most others."


"None of you know him and how can you judge him on anything, w/ out even being close to walking in his shoes."

The above statement sets a standard that makes it impossible to ever reach an opinion on the character of a person. Most likely none of us will ever be close to walking in President Bush's shoes, but I would hope we all have opinions on his character and by extension his policies.

Just so this is a baseball related post:
Jose Acevedo will have a breakout season.


1st statement: if you haven't noticed people complaining about bonds have only said 1 or 2 things and for some reason that gives them the right? and i don't care if the press writes some things about him, you still do not know him enough to hate or dislike him, cause you know nothing about him.

2nd statement: exactly, you should never be able to judge a persons character based on a few quotes of anyone. about bush, we can discuss and hate the things he has done to the country or love them, my point is you can hate or love their decisions but you can never judge someones character based on a couple actions or quotes.
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Postby LetsPlay2 » Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:40 am

hybrid - I'd be happy to agree to disagree and let our points stand on their own merit leaving the reader to determine which seems more logical.

That's what makes this country so great. That and squeeze bottle ketchup......so convenient.
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Postby ramble2 » Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:58 am

LetsPlay2 wrote:"how pampered today's players are, but seem to ignore how exploited players used to be."

I understand what you're saying and have seen a couple specials on how things used to be when every owner was in cahoots. However, if you compare the way the average worker in the meat packing industry, textile mills, secretarial pool, and just in general was "exploited" to the way that the average baseball player was "exploited" at the time, we all know that being a baseball player was still preferable to 95% of the jobs available. And then if you couple that with the gains that have been made by the average baseball player to the gains made by the average worker, any "but they used to have it so bad" claims become laughable. Unless you're a king or a Trump, you'll get "exploited" in some form or other given the definition of the word, but I think that word should be used a bit more judiciously.

Didn't seem like you took a shot at anybody though.


LetsPlay,

Thanks for backing me up here - I certainly wasn't trying to take a shot at anyone. As the rest of your post shows, disagreements happen. Not a big deal.

You are right that baseball players were much less exploited than, say, meat packers (ever read "The Jungle"?), but that doesn't make it okay!

My original point was that I don't know when baseball was pure, nor do I fully understand what people mean when they say that.

It's always been a business, for one thing, and the workers have gradually gained more rights (for better or worse). I don't want to hijack the thread over this, but it seems like romanticizing the past game infuses this current debate. Was baseball supposed to be more pure back when Cobb was playing?



Or perhaps it was more pure when the 'Black Sox' threw the World Series? Or was it more pure in Babe's day, with Babe's contract paying him more than the president causing a big uproar over player salary?

The point is that it's simply naive to think that MLB players EVER played simply due to their love of the game. It's equally mistaken to think that just because someone is getting paid millions of dollars that they are ONLY playing for the money. Even I Rod (a favorite target on the Cafe), I'd be willing to bet, plays in part because he loves to play.
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