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Hank Aaron is Overrated!!

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Postby HOOTIE » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:39 am

Hey LO, no one site has everything.

Baseball-reference.com gives OPS+, which adjusts for parks, and shows a player's relevence to the league (era) he played in.

OPS+ career 100 is average

Ruth 207
Bonds 179
Mantle 172
Mays 156
Aaron 155

As far as RC/27, my Total BB book, which gives everyone's RC career numbers, is packed away in a box somewhere, sorry. Just going from memory, i know

Mays was 7+
Aaron 7+
Mantle 8+
Bonds is 8+ or 9+

Ted and Ruth are way ahead around 14, Gehrig i think 3rd at 11.

Win shares are from Jmes Historical Abstract, although his Handbook has current players win shares.

Career win shares

Ruth 756 top 3 (55/53/51)

Aaron 643 top 3 (41/38/38)

Mays 642 top 3 (43/41/40)

Mantle 565 top 3 51/49/48)

Bonds 611 top 3 (54/44/39)

As you can see, Mays/Aaron very close in everything. Ruth and Mantle had the best PEAK years. Personally, i rank Ruth 1st, Bonds 2nd, Mantle 3rd, Mays 4th, Aaron 9th.


Yankee Sadium isn't that cozy. You have to pull it right down the RF line. While it does favor LHB hrs, it's hardly a nice park to hit in. Ruth btw had more road hrs then home. Ruth didn't face non whites, but he did face the best non whites. Back then bb drew the best athlete. BB has long played a distant 3rd to the best athlete now. Relief pitchers are there because they can't start. Imagine if Ruth got to face a Baez or Riske? pitching now is diluted. In the 60's it wasn't as bad, except the 61 and 69 expansion did hurt some. Look at history. Alot of the best sp ever are pre WW2. Look at the best now, Maddux, RJ, Clemens, Prior, Beckett, Zito, Hudson, Mulder to name a few. They are non white. Non white players seem to be position players more then pitchers. The plus Ruth had of no non whites. i think is negated alot by expansion, especially the 77,93,98 which really watered things down.
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Postby mtarail » Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:06 am

Aaron= consistent greatness. Nuff 'said.

Hate all you want on 755. Hank is alreadyone the most underrated living players so there's plenty of hating for you to spread around.

And mentioning Mantle in the same breath is a joke. Mantle hit 25 or more home runs 10 times. Aaron did it 18 times. Aaron played 5 more seasons than Mantle and still batted 7 points higher (305).
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Excellent

Postby Kwaziwampo » Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:18 am

These are some great posts guys...
I think Jackal is right in saying Bonds is the best now, and Ruth was the best then.
One other point to make here, is that the game was a lot different then when it comes to home runs. They weren't glamourous, and if you listen to Tug McGraw, they were discourgaed. I guess the only close thing we have to that today, is how steals have changed over the past 20 years or so. Now you have a generation of players who want to make it onto Sportscenter with a 500 ft. bomb. Back then, yes, Ruth hit many more than teams, but again, it was a different game. You can see post Ruth, many players HR totals started to go up. The dead/live ball had a lot to do with this granted, but I guess, I compare it to basketball with the slam dunk. Used to be you'd try for a good set shot, but now you try for a windmill jam. Still counts for two points.
Games change over time, and so will our opinions. I wonder how we'll look back at Bonds 20 years from now.
As for the stadiums, yes, there were some larger, and some smaller. Look how Puerto Rico played last year with 315 down the lines...that 10 feet made a good difference.
What we had in Ruth, was an anomoly. There has been no other athelete in history like him as far as dominating the sport. He did change the game. The bottom line though...regardless of AB's, games played, years played, Aaron broke this anomolies record. Bonds may break Aarons record, and A-Rod may break Bond's.
As for dominate non-white pitchers, other than Pedro...
Colon, Vasquez, Loaiza, Nomo, Zambrano, Ortiz, and Livan accounted for 7 of the top 20 IP in the majors last year.
Guardado, Rivera, Julio, Urbina, Mesa, accounted for 5 of the top 20 saves...
Here's one more point about dillusion. There are many more teams today, almost 4 times as many. There are though, more the 70 percent non-whites. That about evens out. The best atheletes back then certainly weren't in baseball, since it didn't pay that well, they were probably engineers, or something other than baseball players. So figure all things considered, it's all somewhat equal. How many times though will Bonds face Clemens this year? 162/30=5 (I know the divisions face each other more, but I'm making a statisical point, however innacurate it may be). So figure he faces Houston for 5 games this year...that means Roger exactly once. How many times would Ruth face the same pitcher. 154/7 teams is 22 times per year. Divide that by 5 you get four times. Who has the advantage? As a former college player, if I see the same stuff four times, as apposed to once, I'm gonna know the guys stuff down pat. Just another log onto the fire...
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Postby Hyde » Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:55 am

Hank Aaron being overrated might be one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard. After his rookie season, he had a 19 yr stretch that was just amazing. During the middle of those 19yrs he had a 9 yr run where he swipped 15-30 bags a yr to go along with all of those hr's. For 19 straight seasons you knew what you were going to get out of Mr Aaron, 25-45 hr's, 80-120 rbi's, 90-110 runs and a 300 avg. There haven't been many Hank Aaron's the last 100 yrs, to say he is overrated is just plain ignorant.
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Amen...

Postby Kwaziwampo » Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:02 am

Amen Hyde...
AND ANOTHER THING!
If we talk about longevity, and how Aaron played more years than Ruth...well there's a whole heck of a lot to be said for longevity.
If we look at who would have broken the HR record in AB per HR's, Mark McGwire would have 1165 HR's with Aarons AB's. Is McGwire the greatest HR hitter ever? Heck no. Along those lines, if Vince Coleman had Rickey's AB's, he'd have 1500 steals. Is Coleman the greatest base stealer ever? Heck no. Same thing with the Cobb/Rose arguement.
The records were broken...and more importantly, when the Berlin Bombers are playing the Turkmenistant Turkey's in the 2107 World Series, they won't look back and remember how Aaron had more AB's. They'll remember how Juan Pierre Jr.'s record of 850 Hr's obliterated that Bonds fellow, and history will make everyone a footnote....even Ruth. The numbers don't lie.
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Postby ramble2 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:28 am

Lofunzo wrote:
CubsFan7724 wrote:zambrano is a warhorse of a pitcher who will eat up innings and has nasty stuff. He'll get over 200ks this year easy. Hes also young, I believe hes 23 or 24. Too bad he wont blossom in time before Barry Bonds retires because he would be something Bonds should be afraid of. This has been a great post so far.


I'm not doubting that anyone other than Dusty will cause Zambrano to not have a nice career. All that I'm saying is that it's a little early to include him in a discussion of the difference between the pitchers that Ruth and Bonds had to face.


Maybe, except that he's the Cubs fourth pitcher (okay, third while Prior is on the DL).
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Postby Guest » Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:38 am

Ruth cost himself 4000 abs because he got fat and died. nuff said..........
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Postby ramble2 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:40 am

Kwaziwampo wrote:Next point-Guillermo Mota. There was no Guillermo Mota, Eric Gange, Billy Wagner, Brendan Donnelly, Troy Percival, Mariano Rivera in Ruth's day. There were starters. They pitched the whole game. There were not situtaional relievers. There were relievers, but they were mostly 5th and 6th starters who would pitch long relief..


Great point.

Kwaziwampo wrote:Next point-White folk. Ruth only had to face one race of players. Look at the game today. Though there are more teams, which era had the better athelete? Where are those althelets from. Today we have players from Australia, S. Korea, Japan, Mexico, etc. The game is over 30 percent hispanic, and over 15 percent black.


Again, I think this is a good point. I used to think the same thing. Now I'm not so sure. I think things probably even out (as I think you were saying in your other post):

Ruth's day: Very few teams, but only one race.
Aaron's day: More teams, but no longer limited to white players.
Bonds day: Lots of teams, but international players.

Admittedly not very scientific, but that's all you get when it's late at night.

Also, as the game progressed, players started earning more money. This allowed them to dedicate themselves year-round to baseball. Even the laziest player of today probably works out more than most of the player's in Ruth's day.

Still, it's difficult to compare across eras in baseball. As HOOTIE pointed out, there are ways to do it. But who knows how Ruth would have done today, given what we now know about strength training. As is well known, Bonds is one of the hardest working players in baseball. Works out like nobody else. Can you imagine if Ruth had done the same?
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Postby princethomas » Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:43 am

There are several points brought up here that I dont understand.

I dont think some of you understand the meaning of tainted or tarnished. You say things like I dont think the record should be tarnished? As if someone makes this choice. Bonds accomplishments have already been somewhat tarnished or tainted. There really isnt anything that can be done about that. They were tainted a little bit when there were 7 60+ homerun seasons in a span of 4 years. After having only 2 60+ homerun seasons in 130 years or so of organized baseball. Of every 50 homerun season there has ever been, more than half have been in the last 15 years. So every homerun mark set now is automatically less impressive.

Also, we live in a world where A+B almost always equals C. Circumstantial evidence is a nice way of putting it.

Bonds is much bigger than he used to be. That is circumstantial.
Bonds had steroids delivered to his freaking house!!! Thats something more than circumstantial.

Bonds works closely with trainer. Bonds gets bigger and stronger. Bonds HR level shoots up higher than ever. SF Area company investigated for steroids. Bonds trainer indicted for involvment with steroids. Bond trainer admits to giving steroides to MLB Players. Feds say steroids were delivered to Bonds house. So anyway. You are right, I guess that is circumstantial. whatever.

I dont want to hear that other people cheated too. Dont bring up Gaylord Perry and other "Spitballers" That wouldnt get over today. I cant speak to people at that time who didnt get mad about that. I wasnt there. I know it would fly today. And today is when Bonds plays. Kerry Wood and Roy Oswalt and Mussina and whoever dont do it. And if they did, they would take the same heat that Bonds is taking.

Last thing, quit whining about Ty Cobb. Was he a bad person. Yeah, I suppose so. Its pretty ridiculous to talk about how bad a guy was personally who was born well over 100 years ago. Racism is a horrible thing, but stop bringing him up as some example of why Bonds is somehow good because at least he s not Ty Cobb.
And someone here said Cobb "Cheated in other inumerable ways"
Really? He was a cheater? How? I m not even really sure how you can cheat in baseball? He spiked people? Well, that was pretty acceptable at the time. Did he run from first to third and pretend he went to second. He didnt Cork his bat that I know of. He didnt use pine tar that I know of. So what, the guy struck out only 357 times in 11,000 ABs. Are you kidding?


Oh and By the way.. I dont think Aaron is overrated at all.

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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:44 am

mtarail wrote:Aaron= consistent greatness. Nuff 'said.

Hate all you want on 755. Hank is alreadyone the most underrated living players so there's plenty of hating for you to spread around.

And mentioning Mantle in the same breath is a joke. Mantle hit 25 or more home runs 10 times. Aaron did it 18 times. Aaron played 5 more seasons than Mantle and still batted 7 points higher (305).


I believe that Hootie was just listing him because he was in the top 5 or so depending on the stats. I love Mantle but injuries and partying destroyed any chance of him being the best ever.

Thanks for the info Hootie. I really appreciate it. ;-D
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