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Hank Aaron is Overrated!!

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Postby Lofunzo » Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:54 pm

HOOTIE wrote:Ruth had fewer abs then Aaron for 2 reasons. Ruth walked ALOT, taking away abs, and Ruth started career pitching, not hitting.

You can compare players from different eras, it's done all the time. You compare them to their league average. OPS+ does this well. Win shares, runs created /27 versus league RC/27.

Ruth didn't face blacks, but it's not that simple. Ruth also never faced EXPANSION pitching, which is quite big. Ruth played in a 8 team league, meaning he faced the top pitchers alot.

Aaron's number are pretty close to Mays, when you look at OPS+, runs created, win shares.


Hootie.......I would be extremely grateful if you could either direct me to a site that has this or if you could post a comparison using your data of Ruth, Aaron, and Bonds. I am interested to see what it says. ;-D
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Postby AcidRock23 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:02 am

Carlos Zambrano...he even got into it a bit w/ Bonds...

Lofunzo wrote:
wrveres wrote:solid post Kwaziwampo ;-D


I agree although I beg to differ on a few things. As for facing only white players, that is true. While he could have faced some latin and black competition as a hitter, comparing it to now, please give me a latin or black pitcher, not named Pedro, that Mr. Bonds faces that strikes fear in hitters. I don't see it. Aaron was an excellent hitter whose numbers and longevity should be commended but he, nor anyone else for that matter, is on the same level as Ruth, IMHO. Anyone that can outhomer teams is #1 in my book. While this is where the other competition comes in, it is still impressive.
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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:07 am

I would like to see more of a body of work from him before annointing him as someone that Bonds faces that Ruth never did. He is good but he is 3 games under .500 for his career and Dusty hasn't had the chance to pitch him into the ground yet. ;-)
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Postby la dodgers » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:08 am

aaron is underated if anything! sorry thats all i wanted to say
go dodgers
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Postby wrveres » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:11 am

oooops , sorry
Last edited by wrveres on Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:11 am

zambrano is a warhorse of a pitcher who will eat up innings and has nasty stuff. He'll get over 200ks this year easy. Hes also young, I believe hes 23 or 24. Too bad he wont blossom in time before Barry Bonds retires because he would be something Bonds should be afraid of. This has been a great post so far.
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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:19 am

CubsFan7724 wrote:zambrano is a warhorse of a pitcher who will eat up innings and has nasty stuff. He'll get over 200ks this year easy. Hes also young, I believe hes 23 or 24. Too bad he wont blossom in time before Barry Bonds retires because he would be something Bonds should be afraid of. This has been a great post so far.


I'm not doubting that anyone other than Dusty will cause Zambrano to not have a nice career. All that I'm saying is that it's a little early to include him in a discussion of the difference between the pitchers that Ruth and Bonds had to face.
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Postby LBJackal » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:22 am

Compare Babe Ruth to those around him. He hit more homeruns than entire teams. Imagine Bonds hitting 200+ HR's nowadays. That's what Babe Ruth was to baseball in his era. Nobody will ever be better. You can say that no blacks/hispanics made it easier, fence distances (even though most were longer) made it easier, no specialty relief pitchers made it easier, but the bottom line is Ruth was head and shoulders above every single person in his era, without any competition whatsoever. Nobody has since done that. Bonds is very good, and the best of his era, but will never be nearly as good as the Babe was.

Records like 755, batting .400, getting 30 wins, etc are purely ceremonial nowadays, and don't say much for the talent level of the players involved. I'm not saying the players weren't great, but you can't judge who was better based on stats and milestones. There are too many variables that have changed over the years to realistically compare players form pre-war times to modern times.

Bonds is the best now. Babe was the best then. Pujols will be the best in the next decade or two. Let's just leave it at that.
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Postby AcidRock23 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:30 am

That's true but, any time a young year old pitcher even elicits a comment from a legend like Bonds, you have to give him some points!! Too bad there's not a fantasy category for "Torquing Off Institutions". To go along w/ Johnny Damon's league leading 'Hat Falling Off' category...

Really, it's pretty clear that Bonds is a good hitter. Even if he's experimented with or even gotten strung out on steroids, I don't think that steroids can account for everything he's accomplished. They are actually useful medicines...I shot them into Mrs. AcidRockwhile she was pregnant as some of our baby stats were off during the pregnancy. We now are struggling keeping up w/ AcidRockJr but well, you know, I have to wonder what would have happened w/o them. No signs of any OPS from Mrs though!

A few weeks ago, there was a bit re the Prior steroid allegations that suggested that pitchers, rather than using them to beef up, would use them to expedite recovery from aches and pains. There's so much that isn't really known about what's going on w/ all of this. W/O full disclosure and participation in some kind of cleanup by the players' union, nothing is going to change...the sport is just too demanding.

It would be great if the players could use their union to strengthen the game and clean it up but they seem determined to use their collective bargaining position to make sure that they can do whatever they want...pot (Kile, the Mets rumors...), steroids, Dock Ellis...


Lofunzo wrote:I would like to see more of a body of work from him before annointing him as someone that Bonds faces that Ruth never did. He is good but he is 3 games under .500 for his career and Dusty hasn't had the chance to pitch him into the ground yet. ;-)
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RE

Postby mets6986 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:39 am

It's perposterous to believe Aaron and Bonds are among the five greatest offensive players ever. Both are tremendous players, but neither are quite worthy of top five status. That said, here's my top five offensive players of all-time.

1. Babe Ruth. Totally reveloutionized the game like nobody has done before. And probably saved it following the 1919 Sox scandal.

2. Ted Williams. No hitter then or at any time since has mastered the science of hitting so masterfully. Best pure hitter ever.

3. Willie Mays. This guy has it all. He could hit for power, average, and steal bases.

4. Lou Gherig. Could be placed as high as two. Durability goes without question, and often lost in the shuffle playing with Ruth for so many years.

5. Stan Musial. Probably the most underrated player of any era. He had to get a special ballot going to get him on the All Century team back in 1999. Amazing to see why. A lifetime .331 hitter, he was MVP three times and had 13 top ten finishes overall. Stan was the Man.
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