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2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby J35J » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:09 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:there is no way if I'm starting a team of just AL players that I take Donaldson over Cabrera. IMO that's insane. I doubt I'd even consider Donaldson in my top 5, or 10.
he's going to have to be one of the best ever on defense to make up for what he did offensively.

I don't really put a lot into WAR. last I checked different websites had different WAR numbers, so how accurate can it be.


Actually I'm not sure which team would win if you had 9 Donaldson's on 1 team and 9 MCabs on 1 team....can you imagine the horror you'd see in the outfield and in the middle infield on the MCab team, probably wouldn't convert but a handful of double plays and any hit to the outfield that isn't directly at the guy would be a double or triple and you'd see plenty of inside the park homers.... %-6

With all that said I don't see where anyone is saying Donaldson should win the MVP, just that you looking at nothing but offensive numbers in your decision to say he shouldn't win isn't exactly looking at the whole picture.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby Skin Blues » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:10 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
Skin Blues wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:He was arguably one of the best defensive 3B in baseball last season. Via FanGraphs he posted a 7.7 WAR, ahead of Cabrera's 7.6, and trailing only Andrew McCutchen (8.2) and Mike Trout (10.4). Again, 18 months from now nobody will even remember who the AL MVP was (off the top of my head I can't remember the AL MVP from any specific year prior to 2012... I'm pretty sure Josh Hamilton won one, but I don't know if it was 2011 or 2010, or if maybe he didn't even win one at all -- and I follow baseball more than most). It's a silly award that I just don't care about. Give it to one of the top guys on the season and let's move on. Splitting hairs amongst the Top 5 or so is silly, since next week we'll have a new metric, or an updated formula, that rearranges their order of value, so we can get gung ho about a different guy instead.

This is the internet, we can analyze the most trivial things, lets be honest. There's a thread for this so why not actually discuss it instead of passing it off as insignificant? As if fantasy baseball has significance! Almost nothing on this website will be worth remembering in 18 months, but hell, we can still argue about it all until that point comes.

Maybe I'm just tired of it having had it here for the better part of the last decade. Also, as long as somebody in the 'argument' is sitting there shouting "Player X had the highest WAR so he is clearly the MVP and that is that" it's not really an argument. I like the metric as a tool as much as the next guy, but as I said previously, differentiating between the Top 5 of so guys is typically splitting hairs, and probably enough error in the formula(s) to be negligible. Beyond that, unless there's a runaway winner, it's just the same recycled thread over and over again, like Groundhogs Day. Until a new metric comes about that we all find shiny and perfect. Then just replace VORP with WAR with whatever the next acronym is. I don't mean to discourage others from participating in this. By all means. Doesn't change the fact that I'm a pretty serious baseball fan and can't name, with certainty, a single AL MVP in the last 5 or 6 years other than Miguel Cabrera -- meanwhile I'm sure during that time we were having this same argument over who should've won versus who was going to or ultimately did win. That's all.

Ask your grandson to add some new bookmarks to your "Internet" icon. haha. But seriously... you sound like a caricature of a curmudgeonly old man. Arguing against things that nobody is arguing for (nobody said WAR is all the matters). Making fun of acronyms/ new stats. Using movies from 20+ years ago for pop culture references. Dude. Either make an argument or go browse the Matlock forums. The nihilist shtick is old.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby wrveres » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:40 pm

and now for the real debate ..

BF4 of COD ?

which one gets my 50 bucks?
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby wrveres » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:43 pm

Skin Blues wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:
Skin Blues wrote:This is the internet, we can analyze the most trivial things, lets be honest. There's a thread for this so why not actually discuss it instead of passing it off as insignificant? As if fantasy baseball has significance! Almost nothing on this website will be worth remembering in 18 months, but hell, we can still argue about it all until that point comes.

Maybe I'm just tired of it having had it here for the better part of the last decade. Also, as long as somebody in the 'argument' is sitting there shouting "Player X had the highest WAR so he is clearly the MVP and that is that" it's not really an argument. I like the metric as a tool as much as the next guy, but as I said previously, differentiating between the Top 5 of so guys is typically splitting hairs, and probably enough error in the formula(s) to be negligible. Beyond that, unless there's a runaway winner, it's just the same recycled thread over and over again, like Groundhogs Day. Until a new metric comes about that we all find shiny and perfect. Then just replace VORP with WAR with whatever the next acronym is. I don't mean to discourage others from participating in this. By all means. Doesn't change the fact that I'm a pretty serious baseball fan and can't name, with certainty, a single AL MVP in the last 5 or 6 years other than Miguel Cabrera -- meanwhile I'm sure during that time we were having this same argument over who should've won versus who was going to or ultimately did win. That's all.

Ask your grandson to add some new bookmarks to your "Internet" icon. haha. But seriously... you sound like a caricature of a curmudgeonly old man. Arguing against things that nobody is arguing for (nobody said WAR is all the matters). Making fun of acronyms/ new stats. Using movies from 20+ years ago for pop culture references. Dude. Either make an argument or go browse the Matlock forums. The nihilist shtick is old.
thats the Jackyl i remember. never afraid to take it personal.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby bigh0rt » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:19 am

Skin Blues wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:
Skin Blues wrote:This is the internet, we can analyze the most trivial things, lets be honest. There's a thread for this so why not actually discuss it instead of passing it off as insignificant? As if fantasy baseball has significance! Almost nothing on this website will be worth remembering in 18 months, but hell, we can still argue about it all until that point comes.

Maybe I'm just tired of it having had it here for the better part of the last decade. Also, as long as somebody in the 'argument' is sitting there shouting "Player X had the highest WAR so he is clearly the MVP and that is that" it's not really an argument. I like the metric as a tool as much as the next guy, but as I said previously, differentiating between the Top 5 of so guys is typically splitting hairs, and probably enough error in the formula(s) to be negligible. Beyond that, unless there's a runaway winner, it's just the same recycled thread over and over again, like Groundhogs Day. Until a new metric comes about that we all find shiny and perfect. Then just replace VORP with WAR with whatever the next acronym is. I don't mean to discourage others from participating in this. By all means. Doesn't change the fact that I'm a pretty serious baseball fan and can't name, with certainty, a single AL MVP in the last 5 or 6 years other than Miguel Cabrera -- meanwhile I'm sure during that time we were having this same argument over who should've won versus who was going to or ultimately did win. That's all.

Ask your grandson to add some new bookmarks to your "Internet" icon. haha. But seriously... you sound like a caricature of a curmudgeonly old man. Arguing against things that nobody is arguing for (nobody said WAR is all the matters). Making fun of acronyms/ new stats. Using movies from 20+ years ago for pop culture references. Dude. Either make an argument or go browse the Matlock forums. The nihilist shtick is old.

You're right. I don't understand sabermetrics. You hit the nail right on the head. You did a spectacularly good job at both getting the point, and responding with unprecedented cunning. While also making valid points and contributing. I applaud you. You've put such egg on my face. I am the Jonathan Martin to your Rich Incognito. I'm going to tuck my tail and go back to not understanding how the internet works, making fun of acronyms, and making dated pop culture references.

If you'd ever like to respond to what I actually wrote, and have one of those discussions you previously mentioned, you're more than welcome. If I want to have the argument, I'll just re-read through the 2011 thread, or the 2010 thread, or the 2008 thread. The argument doesn't change. Ever. Otherwise, you've done an exemplary job of exhibiting why myself and a lot of the other vets here at the Cafe laugh to ourselves when these threads come about annually, and people get all worked up over them, and then the one d-bag starts just insulting the other posters for disagreeing with them. Kudos to proving my point with such ease. ;-D
Last edited by bigh0rt on Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby kellythemick » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:22 am

bigh0rt wrote:
kellythemick wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:Maybe I'm just tired of it having had it here for the better part of the last decade. Also, as long as somebody in the 'argument' is sitting there shouting "Player X had the highest WAR so he is clearly the MVP and that is that" it's not really an argument. I like the metric as a tool as much as the next guy, but as I said previously, differentiating between the Top 5 of so guys is typically splitting hairs, and probably enough error in the formula(s) to be negligible. Beyond that, unless there's a runaway winner, it's just the same recycled thread over and over again, like Groundhogs Day. Until a new metric comes about that we all find shiny and perfect. Then just replace VORP with WAR with whatever the next acronym is. I don't mean to discourage others from participating in this. By all means. Doesn't change the fact that I'm a pretty serious baseball fan and can't name, with certainty, a single AL MVP in the last 5 or 6 years other than Miguel Cabrera -- meanwhile I'm sure during that time we were having this same argument over who should've won versus who was going to or ultimately did win. That's all.

h0rt - you're beginning to sound as old as I actually am.

I'm gonna be 30 this year. It's all downhill from here. :-b

Only until you hit 50. Then you are viewed as a crazy old man, living in the past, and out of touch with present realities. The nice part though - you are either too old to care or too senile to realize your situation. (Speaking from experience of course!) On a side note - Al Kaline was robbed in '63.
If it's obvious it's probably true.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby Izenhart » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:21 pm

I didn't realize the vets here laughed to themselves when discussion threads about player awards are started. My bad, guess this isn't the place to talk about baseball MVPs and such.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby jeffmerk » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:12 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
Skin Blues wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:Maybe I'm just tired of it having had it here for the better part of the last decade. Also, as long as somebody in the 'argument' is sitting there shouting "Player X had the highest WAR so he is clearly the MVP and that is that" it's not really an argument. I like the metric as a tool as much as the next guy, but as I said previously, differentiating between the Top 5 of so guys is typically splitting hairs, and probably enough error in the formula(s) to be negligible. Beyond that, unless there's a runaway winner, it's just the same recycled thread over and over again, like Groundhogs Day. Until a new metric comes about that we all find shiny and perfect. Then just replace VORP with WAR with whatever the next acronym is. I don't mean to discourage others from participating in this. By all means. Doesn't change the fact that I'm a pretty serious baseball fan and can't name, with certainty, a single AL MVP in the last 5 or 6 years other than Miguel Cabrera -- meanwhile I'm sure during that time we were having this same argument over who should've won versus who was going to or ultimately did win. That's all.

Ask your grandson to add some new bookmarks to your "Internet" icon. haha. But seriously... you sound like a caricature of a curmudgeonly old man. Arguing against things that nobody is arguing for (nobody said WAR is all the matters). Making fun of acronyms/ new stats. Using movies from 20+ years ago for pop culture references. Dude. Either make an argument or go browse the Matlock forums. The nihilist shtick is old.

You're right. I don't understand sabermetrics. You hit the nail right on the head. You did a spectacularly good job at both getting the point, and responding with unprecedented cunning. While also making valid points and contributing. I applaud you. You've put such egg on my face. I am the Jonathan Martin to your Rich Incognito. I'm going to tuck my tail and go back to not understanding how the internet works, making fun of acronyms, and making dated pop culture references.

If you'd ever like to respond to what I actually wrote, and have one of those discussions you previously mentioned, you're more than welcome. If I want to have the argument, I'll just re-read through the 2011 thread, or the 2010 thread, or the 2008 thread. The argument doesn't change. Ever. Otherwise, you've done an exemplary job of exhibiting why myself and a lot of the other vets here at the Cafe laugh to ourselves when these threads come about annually, and people get all worked up over them, and then the one d-bag starts just insulting the other posters for disagreeing with them. Kudos to proving my point with such ease. ;-D

Do we really need to bring a reference to the Martin and Incognito fiasco into a "civilized" discussion about the National Pastime?
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby wrveres » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:44 pm

im leaning bf4
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby bigh0rt » Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:23 am

Izenhart wrote:I didn't realize the vets here laughed to themselves when discussion threads about player awards are started. My bad, guess this isn't the place to talk about baseball MVPs and such.

You can take it as some self-righteous statement and get butt hurt, or you can just acknowledge that I find it funny that I've seen the same argument for almost 10 years. I've read it over and over and over again. This is your second time participating in it. Six years from now you may feel the same way, when the topic is invariably started, and you can script it start to finish a month before it unfolds. It's not a bad thing. It's just funny, and means I've been here for what feels like eons. The same roles are there every year, just by different folks (and often the same folks). I could script it in advance. That's what's funny to me. Maybe I should've chosen a different word? I didn't realize it'd offend. Frankly, I don't really care whether I did or not. I didn't say anything offensive.

I mean look, here's the 25 page thread on the 2012 AL MVP Award. There's a lot of good discussion. Always is. Although Mookie's contribution to it clearly won the entire thing, and summed up my sentiments pretty much perfectly -- "Miggy wins in the isFAT stat.

This discussion sucks. Too many people trying to prove they can pull out more stupid esoteric stats than anyone else. You're already posting on a fantasy baseball message board, you don't need to prove that you don't have a girlfriend."

It's clearly in good fun and not mean spirited. We've got a ton of intelligent guys (and gals?) here. But it always turns the same way, and becomes like a satire. It generally stems from people choosing to interpret someone's words in a way which was clearly unintended. And that's when people are even on the same page over whether they're discussing who they think will win the award versus who they feel is deserving of the award. In between you've got the guy who brings up 5x5 fantasy/Triple Crown stats as the crux of his argument, the guy who snarkily puts him down for using such archaic stats, the sub-argument over whether making the playoffs is/should be relevant, over whether 2nd half performance or September performance should be counted separately and how much, possibly we derail into PED discussions if any player has been linked to them, the argument over the intended definition of 'Valuable', the sub-argument over whether pitchers should be considered for the award at all, and various other angles. That's what I find funny. I feel the same way when PED discussions are generally brought up. We had 100+ threads about it back in the hay day of Barry Bonds. They were epic. But I've exhausted myself from those conversations. Just because you weren't here for them doesn't mean they didn't happen. So that's where I'm coming from. That I've read it literally nearly 10 times, and all that changes are the names of the players, the names of the posters, and whatever stats we've decided are important at the time. It's an interesting dynamic. Again, if you want to interpret what I originally said and be butt hurt about it, and feel like my statement was to stifle discussion here at the Cafe, by all means, feel free. I've spent most of the last decade participating in debate and discussion here, so that's yet another statement that I find funny.

But here's the real issue here... MVP stands for Most VALUABLE Player. What does VALUE mean? }:-)
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