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2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby BigLebowski » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:15 pm

J35J wrote:
SpecialFNK wrote:Donaldson is good, but MVP? really?
I don't see any statistic that is outstanding.
15th in R. 14th in H. 13th in D. 20th in HR. 10th in RBI. 10th in AVG. 6th in OBP. 9th in SLG. 7th in OPS.


Defense and Base Running do mean something...and from the looks of it they mean a whole lot more than you are acknowledging.


So does presence in the clubhouse and leadership. I just struggle with the current "Ranking" process for defense. If you were starting a team today and could get a guy who was either a 2013 Josh Donaldson or a 2013 Miggy whom would you take. I just can't see taking a Donny over a Miggy. And as stated the entire MVP process is stupid and a meaningless award, but I just always look at who I would take if I was starting a team.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby wrveres » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:26 am

bigh0rt wrote:It's a silly award that I just don't care about. Give it to one of the top guys on the season and let's move on. Splitting hairs amongst the Top 5 or so is silly, since next week we'll have a new metric, or an updated formula, that rearranges their order of value, so we can get gung ho about a different guy instead.

ill drink to all of that.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby Izenhart » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:45 pm

I think part of the fun of being a baseball fan is enjoying watching the top talent play and marveling at their abilities. To be able to point to one guy and say "he is the best" is just part of what draws you in. The MVP award is imperfect in many ways, but it does mean something to you if you are a fan of the sport, weather you want to admit it or not. Not caring who wins is fine, you know who is who, as do I. But it can still be a fun discussion point. I'd almost never give it to a pitcher, I think the only time I would have voted for a pitcher was when Pedro Martinez lost to Ivan Rodriguez. I'm sure there's some bias in there somewhere too.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby Skin Blues » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:37 am

bigh0rt wrote:
SpecialFNK wrote:Donaldson is good, but MVP? really?
I don't see any statistic that is outstanding.
15th in R. 14th in H. 13th in D. 20th in HR. 10th in RBI. 10th in AVG. 6th in OBP. 9th in SLG. 7th in OPS.

He was arguably one of the best defensive 3B in baseball last season. Via FanGraphs he posted a 7.7 WAR, ahead of Cabrera's 7.6, and trailing only Andrew McCutchen (8.2) and Mike Trout (10.4). Again, 18 months from now nobody will even remember who the AL MVP was (off the top of my head I can't remember the AL MVP from any specific year prior to 2012... I'm pretty sure Josh Hamilton won one, but I don't know if it was 2011 or 2010, or if maybe he didn't even win one at all -- and I follow baseball more than most). It's a silly award that I just don't care about. Give it to one of the top guys on the season and let's move on. Splitting hairs amongst the Top 5 or so is silly, since next week we'll have a new metric, or an updated formula, that rearranges their order of value, so we can get gung ho about a different guy instead.

This is the internet, we can analyze the most trivial things, lets be honest. There's a thread for this so why not actually discuss it instead of passing it off as insignificant? As if fantasy baseball has significance! Almost nothing on this website will be worth remembering in 18 months, but hell, we can still argue about it all until that point comes.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby bigh0rt » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:24 pm

Skin Blues wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:
SpecialFNK wrote:Donaldson is good, but MVP? really?
I don't see any statistic that is outstanding.
15th in R. 14th in H. 13th in D. 20th in HR. 10th in RBI. 10th in AVG. 6th in OBP. 9th in SLG. 7th in OPS.

He was arguably one of the best defensive 3B in baseball last season. Via FanGraphs he posted a 7.7 WAR, ahead of Cabrera's 7.6, and trailing only Andrew McCutchen (8.2) and Mike Trout (10.4). Again, 18 months from now nobody will even remember who the AL MVP was (off the top of my head I can't remember the AL MVP from any specific year prior to 2012... I'm pretty sure Josh Hamilton won one, but I don't know if it was 2011 or 2010, or if maybe he didn't even win one at all -- and I follow baseball more than most). It's a silly award that I just don't care about. Give it to one of the top guys on the season and let's move on. Splitting hairs amongst the Top 5 or so is silly, since next week we'll have a new metric, or an updated formula, that rearranges their order of value, so we can get gung ho about a different guy instead.

This is the internet, we can analyze the most trivial things, lets be honest. There's a thread for this so why not actually discuss it instead of passing it off as insignificant? As if fantasy baseball has significance! Almost nothing on this website will be worth remembering in 18 months, but hell, we can still argue about it all until that point comes.

Maybe I'm just tired of it having had it here for the better part of the last decade. Also, as long as somebody in the 'argument' is sitting there shouting "Player X had the highest WAR so he is clearly the MVP and that is that" it's not really an argument. I like the metric as a tool as much as the next guy, but as I said previously, differentiating between the Top 5 of so guys is typically splitting hairs, and probably enough error in the formula(s) to be negligible. Beyond that, unless there's a runaway winner, it's just the same recycled thread over and over again, like Groundhogs Day. Until a new metric comes about that we all find shiny and perfect. Then just replace VORP with WAR with whatever the next acronym is. I don't mean to discourage others from participating in this. By all means. Doesn't change the fact that I'm a pretty serious baseball fan and can't name, with certainty, a single AL MVP in the last 5 or 6 years other than Miguel Cabrera -- meanwhile I'm sure during that time we were having this same argument over who should've won versus who was going to or ultimately did win. That's all.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby SpecialFNK » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:31 pm

there is no way if I'm starting a team of just AL players that I take Donaldson over Cabrera. IMO that's insane. I doubt I'd even consider Donaldson in my top 5, or 10.
he's going to have to be one of the best ever on defense to make up for what he did offensively.

I don't really put a lot into WAR. last I checked different websites had different WAR numbers, so how accurate can it be.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby kellythemick » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:14 am

bigh0rt wrote:Maybe I'm just tired of it having had it here for the better part of the last decade. Also, as long as somebody in the 'argument' is sitting there shouting "Player X had the highest WAR so he is clearly the MVP and that is that" it's not really an argument. I like the metric as a tool as much as the next guy, but as I said previously, differentiating between the Top 5 of so guys is typically splitting hairs, and probably enough error in the formula(s) to be negligible. Beyond that, unless there's a runaway winner, it's just the same recycled thread over and over again, like Groundhogs Day. Until a new metric comes about that we all find shiny and perfect. Then just replace VORP with WAR with whatever the next acronym is. I don't mean to discourage others from participating in this. By all means. Doesn't change the fact that I'm a pretty serious baseball fan and can't name, with certainty, a single AL MVP in the last 5 or 6 years other than Miguel Cabrera -- meanwhile I'm sure during that time we were having this same argument over who should've won versus who was going to or ultimately did win. That's all.

h0rt - you're beginning to sound as old as I actually am.
If it's obvious it's probably true.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby SpecialFNK » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:16 pm

Donaldson isn't even an option.
Cabrera, Trout, or Davis.
Miguel Cabrera, Mike Trout and Chris Davis have been announced by the BBWAA as finalists for the 2013 American League MVP award.
Cabrera was hampered big-time down the stretch with a sports hernia, leading to lagging production in September. However, he still batted .348/.442/.636 with 44 longballs and 137 RBI, and that's almost surely going to be enough to net him a second straight MVP.
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby bigh0rt » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:46 am

kellythemick wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:Maybe I'm just tired of it having had it here for the better part of the last decade. Also, as long as somebody in the 'argument' is sitting there shouting "Player X had the highest WAR so he is clearly the MVP and that is that" it's not really an argument. I like the metric as a tool as much as the next guy, but as I said previously, differentiating between the Top 5 of so guys is typically splitting hairs, and probably enough error in the formula(s) to be negligible. Beyond that, unless there's a runaway winner, it's just the same recycled thread over and over again, like Groundhogs Day. Until a new metric comes about that we all find shiny and perfect. Then just replace VORP with WAR with whatever the next acronym is. I don't mean to discourage others from participating in this. By all means. Doesn't change the fact that I'm a pretty serious baseball fan and can't name, with certainty, a single AL MVP in the last 5 or 6 years other than Miguel Cabrera -- meanwhile I'm sure during that time we were having this same argument over who should've won versus who was going to or ultimately did win. That's all.

h0rt - you're beginning to sound as old as I actually am.

I'm gonna be 30 this year. It's all downhill from here. :-b
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Re: 2013 AL MVP Trout or Cabrera?

Postby ayebatter » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:54 am

bigh0rt wrote:
kellythemick wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:Maybe I'm just tired of it having had it here for the better part of the last decade. Also, as long as somebody in the 'argument' is sitting there shouting "Player X had the highest WAR so he is clearly the MVP and that is that" it's not really an argument. I like the metric as a tool as much as the next guy, but as I said previously, differentiating between the Top 5 of so guys is typically splitting hairs, and probably enough error in the formula(s) to be negligible. Beyond that, unless there's a runaway winner, it's just the same recycled thread over and over again, like Groundhogs Day. Until a new metric comes about that we all find shiny and perfect. Then just replace VORP with WAR with whatever the next acronym is. I don't mean to discourage others from participating in this. By all means. Doesn't change the fact that I'm a pretty serious baseball fan and can't name, with certainty, a single AL MVP in the last 5 or 6 years other than Miguel Cabrera -- meanwhile I'm sure during that time we were having this same argument over who should've won versus who was going to or ultimately did win. That's all.

h0rt - you're beginning to sound as old as I actually am.

I'm gonna be 30 this year. It's all downhill from here. :-b



Soon to be less trusted than ever. :-b
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