When Is It Time To Quit A League? - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

When Is It Time To Quit A League?

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: When Is It Time To Quit A League?

Postby Mookie4ever » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:22 pm

How do you "top the offer"?
Image
Mookie4ever
Head Moderator
Head Moderator

User avatar
ModeratorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterHockey ModBasketball ModFootball ModMatchup Meltdown ChampionPick 3 Weekly WinnerSweet 16 SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 19545
(Past Year: 280)
Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Hakuna, Montana

Re: When Is It Time To Quit A League?

Postby J35J » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:00 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:How do you "top the offer"?


Exactly...who determines who's offer is better than who's? And if the intent was to collude, then the person giving up all the talent to his friend will just say he likes his friends offer better than your offer.
J35J
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 10467
(Past Year: 398)
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: When Is It Time To Quit A League?

Postby AHF » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:08 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:How do you "top the offer"?


The way it would play out in our league is like this.

Team X announces trade with Team Y of Team X's Carlos Gomez for Team Y's K-Rod and Raul Ibanez.

24 hour period starts

Now teams can make trade offers to either Team X or Team Y involving one or more of the players from the deal. So if you want Carlos Gomez and think you can top an offer of K-Rod and Raul Ibanez then you send your offer to Team X of, say, Bobby Parnell and Hunter Pence and explain why this is superior given that Francisco Rodriguez only is scheduled to get 2 more saves before losing the job and that Ibanez has been a BA killer and irregular starter all season.

Presumably, other teams also are interested in Gomez and send offers of their own.

At some point the team trading Carlos Gomez decides that one of these offers is his new favorite and announces a new deal of Carlos Gomez for Addison Reed and Dexter Fowler. Teams can then try to top the offer for any one of these players. When no one convinces the trading owner to sign up for a different deal, the deal is finalized. (The only exception is the case of collusion which now becomes easier to prove when a team cannot articulate any good faith reason for preferring K-Rod and Ibanez to Reed and Fowler.)

We haven't had a situation where collusion was an issue, but this mechanism completely stopped both the abusing of bad owners (which threatened league balance prior to this being put in) and the bad feelings from seeing lopsided trades go through to a rival's benefit.
AHF
College Coach
College Coach

User avatar

Posts: 232
(Past Year: 8)
Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: When Is It Time To Quit A League?

Postby AHF » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:16 pm

J35J wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:How do you "top the offer"?


Exactly...who determines who's offer is better than who's? And if the intent was to collude, then the person giving up all the talent to his friend will just say he likes his friends offer better than your offer.


In our league, the commish will grant liberal discretion to the team trading to make their own decisions on player values but in the above example it is difficult to believe there is a good faith reason to prefer dead end players like Rodriguez and Ibanez in a keeper (or single season for that matter) league over guys like Reed and Fowler. I think this system makes it much easier to prove collusion because you can look at concrete examples of what was offered and turned down and ridiculous trades like the OP mentioned get exposed. If you are playing with a group of friends who are fantasy vets (as in the case of the OP), this process should force the hand of teams to get much more realistic.

My experience with it has been very positive. Obviously, owners who are actively trying to collude in a league like the OP's are both rare and toxic. If you have people who are willing to collude in that kind of league, there isn't a perfect remedy. I like this one because it favors free market trading (unlike, say, systems with league voting vetoes where people often strike down trades that would hurt their team rather than for reasons of collusion) and really limits the unbalanced trade scenarios all of us have seen in leagues in the past.
AHF
College Coach
College Coach

User avatar

Posts: 232
(Past Year: 8)
Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: When Is It Time To Quit A League?

Postby J35J » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:37 pm

AHF wrote:
J35J wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:How do you "top the offer"?


Exactly...who determines who's offer is better than who's? And if the intent was to collude, then the person giving up all the talent to his friend will just say he likes his friends offer better than your offer.


In our league, the commish will grant liberal discretion to the team trading to make their own decisions on player values but in the above example it is difficult to believe there is a good faith reason to prefer dead end players like Rodriguez and Ibanez in a keeper (or single season for that matter) league over guys like Reed and Fowler. I think this system makes it much easier to prove collusion because you can look at concrete examples of what was offered and turned down and ridiculous trades like the OP mentioned get exposed. If you are playing with a group of friends who are fantasy vets (as in the case of the OP), this process should force the hand of teams to get much more realistic.

My experience with it has been very positive. Obviously, owners who are actively trying to collude in a league like the OP's are both rare and toxic. If you have people who are willing to collude in that kind of league, there isn't a perfect remedy. I like this one because it favors free market trading (unlike, say, systems with league voting vetoes where people often strike down trades that would hurt their team rather than for reasons of collusion) and really limits the unbalanced trade scenarios all of us have seen in leagues in the past.


My only point is if you need rules to safe guard against some of these things then you need new owners. But if you just like these rules then that's totally different...more power to ya. The last thing I want is to essentially get a good deal on a guy and then have someone else come over the top of me only because they now see what it would take with my accepted trade but they wouldn't have initiated it themselves and only waited for someone else to make the offer first. You could essentially not put any effort in trade talks and just wait for trade offers to start coming through from everyone else and just go out and overbid everyone else, or at least the offers you like, but put no effort in the initial trade talks yourself. Or if you are already out of the race and want a certain person to win or don't like a certain person who is doing well and they have a trade come through and you one up his trade just so he doesn't get that player. That's just me playing devils advocate though. :)
J35J
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 10467
(Past Year: 398)
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: When Is It Time To Quit A League?

Postby Bwanna » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:58 pm

I'm pretty sure GMs in real life have a similar rule. :-)
[reg season/playoffs]
LFoD '08 [1st/3rd], '10 [1st/3rd], '11 [1st/2nd], '12 [1st/1st]
123Innings '08 [1st/1st], '09 [1st/3rd], '10 [1st/4th], '12 [4th/2nd]
BRAL '09 2nd, '10 1st
Cool 3.0 '08 1st
Bwanna
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicEagle EyeInnovative MemberWeb Supporter
Posts: 5646
(Past Year: 262)
Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: When Is It Time To Quit A League?

Postby kab21 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:23 am

I think it's time to quit a league when other owners have convinced themselves that they need to install these silly nanny rules.
kab21
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterCafe Ranker
Posts: 5335
(Past Year: 177)
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: When Is It Time To Quit A League?

Postby rjforlife » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:07 am

kab21 wrote:I think it's time to quit a league when other owners have convinced themselves that they need to install these silly nanny rules.



I agree. I commish a league with people and all that means for trades is that they tell me they made a trade, and ask me to push it through the approval process. If you have a veto system, you need to tighten up who you allow to own a team. I understand that you can't always have all great owners, but you really have to be strict about people in your league.
Goldy is King.
rjforlife
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicResponse TeamCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 7509
(Past Year: 748)
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Vegas Baby

Re: When Is It Time To Quit A League?

Postby Frenchiegangsta9 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:07 pm

J35J wrote:
AHF wrote:
J35J wrote:
Exactly...who determines who's offer is better than who's? And if the intent was to collude, then the person giving up all the talent to his friend will just say he likes his friends offer better than your offer.


In our league, the commish will grant liberal discretion to the team trading to make their own decisions on player values but in the above example it is difficult to believe there is a good faith reason to prefer dead end players like Rodriguez and Ibanez in a keeper (or single season for that matter) league over guys like Reed and Fowler. I think this system makes it much easier to prove collusion because you can look at concrete examples of what was offered and turned down and ridiculous trades like the OP mentioned get exposed. If you are playing with a group of friends who are fantasy vets (as in the case of the OP), this process should force the hand of teams to get much more realistic.

My experience with it has been very positive. Obviously, owners who are actively trying to collude in a league like the OP's are both rare and toxic. If you have people who are willing to collude in that kind of league, there isn't a perfect remedy. I like this one because it favors free market trading (unlike, say, systems with league voting vetoes where people often strike down trades that would hurt their team rather than for reasons of collusion) and really limits the unbalanced trade scenarios all of us have seen in leagues in the past.


My only point is if you need rules to safe guard against some of these things then you need new owners. But if you just like these rules then that's totally different...more power to ya. The last thing I want is to essentially get a good deal on a guy and then have someone else come over the top of me only because they now see what it would take with my accepted trade but they wouldn't have initiated it themselves and only waited for someone else to make the offer first. You could essentially not put any effort in trade talks and just wait for trade offers to start coming through from everyone else and just go out and overbid everyone else, or at least the offers you like, but put no effort in the initial trade talks yourself. Or if you are already out of the race and want a certain person to win or don't like a certain person who is doing well and they have a trade come through and you one up his trade just so he doesn't get that player. That's just me playing devils advocate though. :)


J35J nailed it. This was my first thought as well, there would be no incentive to put any effort in when it came to making trades, just reviewing the framework of 2 other managers efforts and seeing if you wanted to "top" that done deal.
Frenchiegangsta9
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor


Posts: 924
(Past Year: 16)
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: When Is It Time To Quit A League?

Postby AHF » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:32 pm

I see constant complaining in the trade board on this site, in fantasy chats, etc. about unfair trades. This mechanism is fantastic for both allowing the balance on trades to come to a more reasonable equilibrium and for taking the bad feelings out of the process. It doesn't bother me that 'effort' might go to waste anymore than it bothers me when I put in time before the draft and some more casual fantasy player orders a draft kit online and uses that to draft. I do wish some other people had experience with this system so they could offer some first hand impressions.

I have done fantasy football, baseball and basketball for about 20 years and not found a trade system I like better.
AHF
College Coach
College Coach

User avatar

Posts: 232
(Past Year: 8)
Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Home Cafe: Baseball

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: joiingds, unioreimi and 6 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Sunday, Aug. 31
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

NY Yankees at Toronto
(1:07 pm)
Philadelphia at NY Mets
(1:10 pm)
Minnesota at Baltimore
(1:35 pm)
Cincinnati at Pittsburgh
(1:35 pm)
Boston at Tampa Bay
(1:40 pm)
indoors
Detroit at Chi White Sox
(2:10 pm)
Texas at Houston
(2:10 pm)
Chi Cubs at St. Louis
(2:15 pm)
Oakland at LA Angels
(3:35 pm)
Milwaukee at San Francisco
(4:05 pm)
Colorado at Arizona
(4:10 pm)
LA Dodgers at San Diego
(4:10 pm)
Washington at Seattle
(4:10 pm)
Miami at Atlanta
(5:10 pm)
Cleveland at Kansas City
(8:07 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact