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Re: Gerrit Cole

Postby Mortician » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:55 am

TheTrith wrote:
Mortician wrote: Its not that he doesn't have to ability to K guys, He had a k/9 over 9 in 2012, its that he has been saving his breaking stuff for when the k is necessary

That, or he just doesnt have the ability to K guys.

I dont think his numbers this year from both AAA and MLB are lying.


2009: 11.01 k/9
2010: 11.19 k/9
2011: 9.4 k/9
2012: 9.3 k/9

his mlb numbers aren't lying, but the #'s from the prior 4 years are?? :-D

450 IP is a much larger sample size than 18 IP..... I still think he can up his mlb k/9 at least over 7 over the next five years or so

If you believe that his 4.0 k/9 over an entire three games is going to be the best predictor of his career k/9 than I feel we will never agree. Too small a sample size for me. Especially for someone only 23 yrs old with many years till his prime. I don't know about you, but I'm definitely holding onto him in my dynasty league. I see a bright future ahead in the next few years
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Re: Gerrit Cole

Postby Skin Blues » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:15 am

It's not just his 3 game MLB sample, it's every game he's played above AA. At this point he hasn't even shown the ability to strikeout AAA hitters. In 16 starts between AAA/MLB he has a 6.0 K/9. In a year or two, sure, I have no doubt he'll improve. But right now he simply can't miss bats at the major league level. Pure gas might be enough for A/AA hitters but it's not going to work against the best in the world. You said "he hit a couple rocky situations early and used the breaking stuff to induce a K when necessary" which was pretty quickly shown to be false. I don't know why people need to make up reasons to support their preconceived notions. You can believe in him without creating a narrative to explain his shortcomings.
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Re: Gerrit Cole

Postby Mortician » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:26 am

Krunk City King$ wrote:some interesting notes on GC's Ks and his philosophy:
by Scott White | Senior Fantasy Writer

(06/12/13) For the most part, Gerrit Cole's major-league debut Tuesday against the Giants was a successful one. Some will quibble over the lack of strikeouts, especially since he underwhelmed with only 6.2 per nine innings in his 12 starts at Triple-A Indianapolis, but I liked his response to the naysayers:

""When you have a lead, it allows you to be aggressive," Cole said. "If there's no one on base, I'm going to just challenge guys.""

**********
Waiver Wire: Drawing a Blanks
Nando Di Fino
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In 2012, across three levels, Cole struck out 136 batters in 132 innings, good for a K/9 of 9.3. In Triple-A this season, however, Cole saw his K/9 drop to 6.2. But this line was almost perfectly telegraphed by the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review's "Bucco Blog" a few days before Cole's debut, revelaing that the downturn in strikeout rates is something Cole is not only aware of, but actually striving for:

"I don't go for strikeouts," [Cole] said."I know I can get them when I want to. But I know it's really important to challenge guys in the zone and beat them in the zone. When you have a game where you throw 100 pitches in five innings and strike out 10, a lot of people that weren't there write that up as a dominant outing. What is really dominating is Matt Cain throwing a complete game with 100 pitches and giving up just two hits with two strikeouts.

So many other things are more important than strikeouts, like the pace of the game and keeping your fielders ready. ... You can't think about what other people are writing about you -- why haven't I struck out a 100 million people yet? -- you have to get that (stuff) out of your head."


So I wouldn't expect Cole to strike out a ton of batters this season, but I wouldn't be surprised if he mixes in a few games with 7-10 strikeouts when the mood strikes him. Still, the ratios should be low enough to make him a valuable pitcher going forward in most formats.

http://fantasynews.cbssports.com/fantas ... g-a-blanks


I wasn't making up any reasons, I was stating the approach that Cole himself said he was taking. Going for strikeouts when he wants to and attacking the zone with a lead. So far at 3-0 he's had a lead for most of his innings. And please refrain from calling me a liar, or "making up reasons" as you put it. It's bad taste
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Re: Gerrit Cole

Postby mac-unit » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:54 am

Mortician wrote:
Krunk City King$ wrote:some interesting notes on GC's Ks and his philosophy:
by Scott White | Senior Fantasy Writer

(06/12/13) For the most part, Gerrit Cole's major-league debut Tuesday against the Giants was a successful one. Some will quibble over the lack of strikeouts, especially since he underwhelmed with only 6.2 per nine innings in his 12 starts at Triple-A Indianapolis, but I liked his response to the naysayers:

""When you have a lead, it allows you to be aggressive," Cole said. "If there's no one on base, I'm going to just challenge guys.""

**********
Waiver Wire: Drawing a Blanks
Nando Di Fino
Senior Fantasy Writer

In 2012, across three levels, Cole struck out 136 batters in 132 innings, good for a K/9 of 9.3. In Triple-A this season, however, Cole saw his K/9 drop to 6.2. But this line was almost perfectly telegraphed by the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review's "Bucco Blog" a few days before Cole's debut, revelaing that the downturn in strikeout rates is something Cole is not only aware of, but actually striving for:

"I don't go for strikeouts," [Cole] said."I know I can get them when I want to. But I know it's really important to challenge guys in the zone and beat them in the zone. When you have a game where you throw 100 pitches in five innings and strike out 10, a lot of people that weren't there write that up as a dominant outing. What is really dominating is Matt Cain throwing a complete game with 100 pitches and giving up just two hits with two strikeouts.

So many other things are more important than strikeouts, like the pace of the game and keeping your fielders ready. ... You can't think about what other people are writing about you -- why haven't I struck out a 100 million people yet? -- you have to get that (stuff) out of your head."


So I wouldn't expect Cole to strike out a ton of batters this season, but I wouldn't be surprised if he mixes in a few games with 7-10 strikeouts when the mood strikes him. Still, the ratios should be low enough to make him a valuable pitcher going forward in most formats.

http://fantasynews.cbssports.com/fantas ... g-a-blanks


I wasn't making up any reasons, I was stating the approach that Cole himself said he was taking. Going for strikeouts when he wants to and attacking the zone with a lead. So far at 3-0 he's had a lead for most of his innings. And please refrain from calling me a liar, or "making up reasons" as you put it. It's bad taste



He can talk all he wants but he hasn't executed his approach at all so far.
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Re: Gerrit Cole

Postby Skin Blues » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:56 am

"So many other things are more important than strikeouts, like the pace of the game and keeping your fielders ready"

Seems that he has the same backward outlook on FIP-stats as Trevor Bauer. I take that as a bad sign, not a good one. How many times did we hear that Bauer "can stop walking people if he wants to, but it's part of his game plan"? I want a pitcher that recognizes the value of a K, as opposed to a pitcher that by his own admission places more value on the pace of the game and keeping your fielders ready, whatever that means. He's afraid that if he gets too many Ks then his fielders will become bored and complacent?
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Re: Gerrit Cole

Postby Mortician » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:58 pm

mac-unit wrote:
Mortician wrote:
Krunk City King$ wrote:some interesting notes on GC's Ks and his philosophy:
by Scott White | Senior Fantasy Writer

(06/12/13) For the most part, Gerrit Cole's major-league debut Tuesday against the Giants was a successful one. Some will quibble over the lack of strikeouts, especially since he underwhelmed with only 6.2 per nine innings in his 12 starts at Triple-A Indianapolis, but I liked his response to the naysayers:

""When you have a lead, it allows you to be aggressive," Cole said. "If there's no one on base, I'm going to just challenge guys.""

**********
Waiver Wire: Drawing a Blanks
Nando Di Fino
Senior Fantasy Writer

In 2012, across three levels, Cole struck out 136 batters in 132 innings, good for a K/9 of 9.3. In Triple-A this season, however, Cole saw his K/9 drop to 6.2. But this line was almost perfectly telegraphed by the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review's "Bucco Blog" a few days before Cole's debut, revelaing that the downturn in strikeout rates is something Cole is not only aware of, but actually striving for:

"I don't go for strikeouts," [Cole] said."I know I can get them when I want to. But I know it's really important to challenge guys in the zone and beat them in the zone. When you have a game where you throw 100 pitches in five innings and strike out 10, a lot of people that weren't there write that up as a dominant outing. What is really dominating is Matt Cain throwing a complete game with 100 pitches and giving up just two hits with two strikeouts.

So many other things are more important than strikeouts, like the pace of the game and keeping your fielders ready. ... You can't think about what other people are writing about you -- why haven't I struck out a 100 million people yet? -- you have to get that (stuff) out of your head."


So I wouldn't expect Cole to strike out a ton of batters this season, but I wouldn't be surprised if he mixes in a few games with 7-10 strikeouts when the mood strikes him. Still, the ratios should be low enough to make him a valuable pitcher going forward in most formats.

http://fantasynews.cbssports.com/fantas ... g-a-blanks


I wasn't making up any reasons, I was stating the approach that Cole himself said he was taking. Going for strikeouts when he wants to and attacking the zone with a lead. So far at 3-0 he's had a lead for most of his innings. And please refrain from calling me a liar, or "making up reasons" as you put it. It's bad taste



He can talk all he wants but he hasn't executed his approach at all so far.


According to his three games so far, I think he's been exactly doing what he's said. At least definitely the parts about Not overemphasizing the strikeouts, being aggressive and just throwing strikes when pitching with the lead, and keeping a fast pace to the game. Which parts are you disagreeing with?
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Re: Gerrit Cole

Postby Mortician » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:27 pm

Skin Blues wrote:"So many other things are more important than strikeouts, like the pace of the game and keeping your fielders ready"

Seems that he has the same backward outlook on FIP-stats as Trevor Bauer. I take that as a bad sign, not a good one. How many times did we hear that Bauer "can stop walking people if he wants to, but it's part of his game plan"? I want a pitcher that recognizes the value of a K, as opposed to a pitcher that by his own admission places more value on the pace of the game and keeping your fielders ready, whatever that means. He's afraid that if he gets too many Ks then his fielders will become bored and complacent?


I agree. while long innings can take the momentum away from you, I think its less important than actually executing on the mound. And while I never heard that bauer could stop walking people and be effective, he never did it all throughout college, minors, and obviously majors. I guess the only main difference between bauer and cole is that cole's is actually working and producing wins and has already beaten two former cy youngs and weaver, while bauer is one giant mess and blows games constantly. I have a feeling Bauer will never truly mature into the player we were hoping for, and may go the way of rick ankiel, only not being able to hit either... Not that ankiel can actually hit well anyway lol ;-D
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Re: Gerrit Cole

Postby TheTrith » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:39 pm

Mortician wrote:
TheTrith wrote:
Mortician wrote: Its not that he doesn't have to ability to K guys, He had a k/9 over 9 in 2012, its that he has been saving his breaking stuff for when the k is necessary

That, or he just doesnt have the ability to K guys.

I dont think his numbers this year from both AAA and MLB are lying.


2009: 11.01 k/9
2010: 11.19 k/9
2011: 9.4 k/9
2012: 9.3 k/9

his mlb numbers aren't lying, but the #'s from the prior 4 years are?? :-D

450 IP is a much larger sample size than 18 IP..... I still think he can up his mlb k/9 at least over 7 over the next five years or so

If you believe that his 4.0 k/9 over an entire three games is going to be the best predictor of his career k/9 than I feel we will never agree. Too small a sample size for me. Especially for someone only 23 yrs old with many years till his prime. I don't know about you, but I'm definitely holding onto him in my dynasty league. I see a bright future ahead in the next few years

Cool.
So you completely ignored his AAA numbers which was my entire point, and instead focused on his low minor stats where hitters are not even close to the MLB level.
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Re: Gerrit Cole

Postby Mortician » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:35 pm

TheTrith wrote:
Mortician wrote:
TheTrith wrote:That, or he just doesnt have the ability to K guys.

I dont think his numbers this year from both AAA and MLB are lying.


2009: 11.01 k/9
2010: 11.19 k/9
2011: 9.4 k/9
2012: 9.3 k/9

his mlb numbers aren't lying, but the #'s from the prior 4 years are?? :-D

450 IP is a much larger sample size than 18 IP..... I still think he can up his mlb k/9 at least over 7 over the next five years or so

If you believe that his 4.0 k/9 over an entire three games is going to be the best predictor of his career k/9 than I feel we will never agree. Too small a sample size for me. Especially for someone only 23 yrs old with many years till his prime. I don't know about you, but I'm definitely holding onto him in my dynasty league. I see a bright future ahead in the next few years

Cool.
So you completely ignored his AAA numbers which was my entire point, and instead focused on his low minor stats where hitters are not even close to the MLB level.


I know that was your point. Thats why I didn't mention it. You already provided analysis of his AAA numbers for the readers of this thread. Why would i restate something you already said. I was simply expanding upon your analysis to include the portion of his stats relevant to my opinion on this player. The cafe isn't here so that two people can argue between themselves over a topic. Nobody wants to read that. Its here for debate on differing opinions of players so that the readers can get a broader idea of the whole picture of players to help them with their own fantasy teams.
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Re: Gerrit Cole

Postby Krunk City King$ » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:25 am

I was gonna trade him until I read these entries.

Observations made by another blogger:

He's pitched at least 6 in 3 of his 4 starts, and into the 7th twice, but he hasn't thrown more than 94 pitches in any start. This guy is focusing getting thru innings, throwing as few pitches as possible. Impressive. This is usually an art that has to be learned. Unusual for a rookie to be this efficient with his pitches. It's unusual for a rookie to focus on pitch efficiency. That Pirates have something special in this guy.

So another 6 innings, 3 earnies. Love the approach of this guy. His focus is on innings, not Ks. 7 out of his last 8 starts at AAA were 6+ innings. 3 out of 4 in the big leagues have been 6+. The guy has the build to be a workhorse kinda guy, and he has the ability to pitch innings. Pitching innings is clearly an art. Saw a breakdown of Cole by Smoltz. He's thrown 84% fastballs. And he's pitching in the zone with his fastball, pitching to contact. He ain't trying to get Ks, he's trying to induce contact, get quick outs. And he's got a heavy fastball that is tough to square up. As a result, he ain't getting hit. He's pitching in zone, primarily with his fastball, and the league has a .660 OPS against the guy. Could not be more impressed with Cole. This guy is gonna be a 230 inning guy, year after year, barring injury. Ks? Could not care less, and neither could Cole.

More Smoltz observations:

http://wapc.mlb.com/mil/play/?content_i ... id=7417714 ;-D
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