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Sure, I'll be the first to write it...

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Re: Sure, I'll be the first to write it...

Postby bayside » Sun May 19, 2013 11:51 pm

Ender wrote:Votto is a better real baseball hitter than Cabrera is by a slight margin, roughly 10 wOBA or so. .

No, he isnt. Thats just flat out wrong.
wOBA since 2011 to date:
MCab .429
Votto .420
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?p ... &sort=17,d

wRC+ since 2011 to date:
MCab 173
Votto 166

and it especially doesnt hold true this year.
wOBA 2013
MCab .443 (and that going to take a huge jump with his 4-4, 3HR night tonight)
Votto .430

Might want to check your facts before being so adamant about a topic that nobody agrees with you on.

Also Cabrera has been more durable than Votto in his career.
Since 2008 (Vottos first full season) Cabrera has played in 86 more games than Votto has.

edited to add playing time
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Re: Sure, I'll be the first to write it...

Postby OBPlover » Mon May 20, 2013 2:14 am

Thread is getting very off topic.

Just to add, Votto is great but even me, a lover of OBP, recognizes that eventually you start to get diminishing returns off the sky-high walk rate. I think Cabrera could work the counts and walk a heck of a lot more if he really wanted to.

As for Goldy, yeah I have him in one of my leagues. Wish I got him in more. A lot of fantasy analysts predicted he would explode like this...nice to see them right once in a while :-D
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Re: Sure, I'll be the first to write it...

Postby Ender » Tue May 21, 2013 11:32 am

bayside wrote:
Ender wrote:Votto is a better real baseball hitter than Cabrera is by a slight margin, roughly 10 wOBA or so. .

No, he isnt. Thats just flat out wrong.
wOBA since 2011 to date:
MCab .429
Votto .420
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?p ... &sort=17,d

wRC+ since 2011 to date:
MCab 173
Votto 166

and it especially doesnt hold true this year.
wOBA 2013
MCab .443 (and that going to take a huge jump with his 4-4, 3HR night tonight)
Votto .430

Might want to check your facts before being so adamant about a topic that nobody agrees with you on.

Also Cabrera has been more durable than Votto in his career.
Since 2008 (Vottos first full season) Cabrera has played in 86 more games than Votto has.

edited to add playing time


I did check my facts, I just checked them the day before Cabrera hit 3 HR and the two flip flopped. They even showed the numbers on mlb today (after my post mind you) when discussing whether Cabrera is the best RH hitter, in baseball they all agreed he was and then showed that exact same graphic from 2011 on only with Votto ahead in wOBA. The durability is a definite plus for sure. I'm not saying Cabrera shouldn't have been a top 3 pick, his consistent play and durability make him an easy top 3 pick, I just don't expect top 5 value out of him for fantasy baseball and it is only because he doesn't steal and that is 20% of a players value in the game we play. Just like one or two pitchers will end up top 5 value in a normal roto league (innings cap so they represent 15% of your entire pitching value which inflates their end value) but I would never draft them there.
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Re: Sure, I'll be the first to write it...

Postby bayside » Tue May 21, 2013 7:17 pm

wait what?
youre trying to say they just flip flopped after the 3 hr game?
nope, thats also false as the link I provided shows.

the stats i posted were from before the game. fangraphs doesnt update in real time.
his wOBA is now .471 so it jumped almost 30 points after i posted that which only widens the gap that already existed.

the numbers dont lie. cabrera is, and has been a better hitter for at least the past 3+ years.
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Re: Sure, I'll be the first to write it...

Postby Ender » Tue May 21, 2013 11:09 pm

bayside wrote:wait what?
youre trying to say they just flip flopped after the 3 hr game?
nope, thats also false as the link I provided shows.

the stats i posted were from before the game. fangraphs doesnt update in real time.
his wOBA is now .471 so it jumped almost 30 points after i posted that which only widens the gap that already existed.

the numbers dont lie. cabrera is, and has been a better hitter for at least the past 3+ years.


Dude you are wrong, I just watched the MLB tonight episode like 3 days ago and it very clearly showed a 2011 to present graphic with Votto ahead. I personally did the same exact search on fangraphs and Votto was ahead. The only reason Cabrera comes out ahead is because of his hot last few games. His 2013 wOBA has gone up 50 pts in the last few games. Votto has been ahead of him 3 of the past 5 seasons so I guess this year would be the tie breaker. They are neck and neck in value. In fact after this hot streak for Cabrera currently the 2009 until present wOBA of the two are Cabrera .425 and Votto .424, you can't find two closer players.

If you are talking 2011+ only you basically have 6 guys who are dead even and will swap based on the past few weeks worth of stats. Cabrera, Votto, Braun, Ortiz (really?), Bautista, Fielder. It takes very little to make these numbers swap back and forth because they are so incredibly close.
Last edited by Ender on Wed May 22, 2013 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sure, I'll be the first to write it...

Postby bayside » Tue May 21, 2013 11:34 pm

The link is right there. Maybe it takes you to a different page than it does for me.
Or maybe you interpret the facts differently than I see them.
I dunno.


Either way I would trust the stats that that I see in black and white on Fangraphs (baseball ref) way more than I would trust some graphic on MLB Network. Ive seen some pretty horrendous "analysis" on there and they arent always all that accurate with their info.

No matter what, I dont see any logical argument for keeping this guy out of the top 5.
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Re: Sure, I'll be the first to write it...

Postby rjforlife » Tue May 21, 2013 11:48 pm

Can you guys be done? Goldy is still the impetus for this thread, and an awesome player!
Goldy is King.
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Re: Sure, I'll be the first to write it...

Postby baseball77 » Wed May 22, 2013 12:35 am

I'm actually kind of curious who the supposed 5 better players are. O:-)
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Re: Sure, I'll be the first to write it...

Postby Ender » Wed May 22, 2013 9:21 am

bayside wrote:The link is right there. Maybe it takes you to a different page than it does for me.
Or maybe you interpret the facts differently than I see them.
I dunno.


Either way I would trust the stats that that I see in black and white on Fangraphs (baseball ref) way more than I would trust some graphic on MLB Network. Ive seen some pretty horrendous "analysis" on there and they arent always all that accurate with their info.

No matter what, I dont see any logical argument for keeping this guy out of the top 5.


The link doesn't work (it just shows the 2013 totals) and yes I did the same exact thing you did on Fangraphs only a few days earlier, the results changed because of a big game. You know what happens in the season matters, when I did mine Votto was ahead of Cabrera on the 2013 season, now Cabrera is ahead by a wide margin. They are that close where one or two big game still does change things. Cabrera is now 13 pts ahead of him which is another 3 pts ahead than when I checked it last time and it is only 1 or 2 games later now. Also I didn't say he isn't a top 5 pick, don't put words in my mouth. I said he has never earned top 5 fantasy value in a season. Of course all of this is so arbitrary that it is silly that you are stuck on it. We can disagree on something and it isn't a crime, I think Votto is the best hitter in baseball, you think Cabrera is, big deal. The fact the 'best' by a stat changes on a weekly basis just reinforces that they are neck and neck.

To keep this on topic some, yeah Goldschmidt is awesome. I would have to burn a 3rd round pick to keep him next year and I'm pretty sure I'll do it. I think I might keep him at a 1st round pick since 5 keepers dilutes the talent pool enough that you aren't likely to get someone outside the 1st 2 rounds in value.
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Re: Sure, I'll be the first to write it...

Postby buffalobillsrul2002 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:39 pm

Digging up this thread. Goldschmidt finishes the year with .300/35/100/125/15. Pretty good. What's he next year, between 5 and 10 overall somewhere? I think that's where I'll have him roughly...
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