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Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

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Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby Tavish » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:26 pm

Like I said, its more a perception of why they do those things. Even if they were to do exactly the same things, Varys would get the benefit of the doubt over Littlefinger because of the way their motivations have been portrayed.
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Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby mweir145 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:01 pm

bleach168 wrote:What has Varys actually done for the kingdom? Like Littlefinger, he supported the Mad King, Robert, and now Joffrey. Like Littlefinger, he supported killing Dany and almost kills her with the assassin he sent. He doesn't do anything for Sansa. He just stood by while Ned got destroyed.

Well, for one, he's trying to stop Littlefinger from taking power (which Littlefinger will do if Robb dies and he has Sansa) because he knows what kind of person Littlefinger is and what he'd do with that kind of power. Although, I'm sure it's also because he enjoys foiling his plans. One could actually argue that the killing Dany thing was the right call to make, at least from the perspective of preventing future war and saving innocent lives in Westeros. And he wasn't exactly in much of a position to do much for Ned once Littlefinger/the Lannisters turned against him. Though, he did go down and give him water in the dungeons (in this cool scene from S1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_WQUOHZ6Dg). When asked by Ned who he truly serves then, he responded that he serves the realm because "someone must." Now, he may be in it for himself like nearly everyone else, but I haven't yet seen anything to suggest he was lying there. He did help Tyrion with the defense of King's Landing last year, of course.



Varys does help Tyrion, who is clearly a good guy. Though, Tyrion is on the Lannisters side who are clearly bad guys. So is he helping Tyrion or the Lannisters? The "I do what I do for the kingdom" proclamation can be construed in so many ways that I can't credit it as being good intentioned. For example, Tywin honestly thinks he's doing what is best for the kingdom.

While he seems to be a generally sensible and rational person, Tywin's more about building a legacy for his house than anything else, I'd say. If it's something that will ensure Lannister success and maintain Lannister honour, Tywin will be behind it. In contrast, Varys doesn't exactly have a house or any real legacy to worry about.
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Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby bleach168 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:09 pm

mweir145 wrote:
bleach168 wrote:What has Varys actually done for the kingdom? Like Littlefinger, he supported the Mad King, Robert, and now Joffrey. Like Littlefinger, he supported killing Dany and almost kills her with the assassin he sent. He doesn't do anything for Sansa. He just stood by while Ned got destroyed.

Well, for one, he's trying to stop Littlefinger from taking power (which Littlefinger will do if Robb dies and he has Sansa) because he knows what kind of person Littlefinger is and what he'd do with that kind of power. Although, I'm sure it's also because he enjoys foiling his plans. One could actually argue that the killing Dany thing was the right call to make, at least from the perspective of preventing future war and saving innocent lives in Westeros. And he wasn't exactly in much of a position to do much for Ned once Littlefinger/the Lannisters turned against him. Though, he did go down and give him water in the dungeons (in this cool scene from S1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_WQUOHZ6Dg). When asked by Ned who he truly serves then, he responded that he serves the realm because "someone must." Now, he may be in it for himself like nearly everyone else, but I haven't yet seen anything to suggest he was lying there. He did help Tyrion with the defense of King's Landing last year, of course.
.


I re-watched episode 4. The scene where Varys warns Lady Olenna about Littlefinger is not in the books. Also, the scene where Rose warns Varys about Littlefinger is not in the books. I'm not even sure they suspected Littlefinger was interested in Sansa. Afterall, he's slated to marry Lysa and become lord of the Vale (this was explained on the TV show). Littlefinger can't marry two women at the same time, can he? It's weird that Varys and Lady Olenna seem to forget that fact on the TV show.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I love the Varys character. I do want to believe in him and commit to him, but this is game of thrones and no one is to be trusted.
"And so he spoke, and so he spoke, that lord of Castamere. But now the rains weep o'er his hall, with no one there to hear." - The Rains of Castamere
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Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby mweir145 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:09 am

bleach168 wrote:I re-watched episode 4. The scene where Varys warns Lady Olenna about Littlefinger is not in the books. Also, the scene where Rose warns Varys about Littlefinger is not in the books. I'm not even sure they suspected Littlefinger was interested in Sansa. Afterall, he's slated to marry Lysa and become lord of the Vale (this was explained on the TV show). Littlefinger can't marry two women at the same time, can he? It's weird that Varys and Lady Olenna seem to forget that fact on the TV show.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I love the Varys character. I do want to believe in him and commit to him, but this is game of thrones and no one is to be trusted.

I don't know what is in the books and what isn't. But in the TV show, it seems quite clear that Varys has been portrayed in a more positive light than Littlefinger, at least in terms of what motivates him.
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Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby The Artful Dodger » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:08 am

Another very good episode, all in all.

Like last week, every key scene that figured to be featured in this episode delivered. It seemed to me that the dialogue in the key scenes was taken verbatim from the book, namely the Jaime scenes and the Karstark story. Nice touch. I also liked the attention to detail with the Hound/Beric scene.

Also, I take delight in Tywin still being a boss.
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Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby bleach168 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:46 pm

Fun episode! Really enjoyed the Stannis scenes. They did a good job establishing Selyse and a brilliant job establishing Shireen. No need to explain greyscale, just show how sweet and innocent the girl is and how her face is horribly disfigured. Mission accomplished.

Again, great job making Lady Olenna and Tywin look good. It's pretty clear at this point that Lady Olenna is the head of the Tyrell household. Both Varys and Tyrion come to her with matters concerning the Tyrells. Mace Tyrell hasn't even made an appearance yet. This wasn't clear in the books, but I always suspected that was the case.

I must have missed it, but how does Tywin find out that the Tyrells are planning to marry Loras to Sansa again?
"And so he spoke, and so he spoke, that lord of Castamere. But now the rains weep o'er his hall, with no one there to hear." - The Rains of Castamere
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Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby GiantsFan14 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:23 pm

bleach168 wrote:I must have missed it, but how does Tywin find out that the Tyrells are planning to marry Loras to Sansa again?


Tywin told Cersei that he needed proof that the Tyrells were hiding something. Cersei asked Littlefinger to find out out anything he could at the beginning of the episode. Littlefinger had one of his guys sleep with Loras who told him that he was engaged (I don't think he specifically said Sansa but it's implied that he did at some point). It then made it's way through the chain back to Tywin.
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Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby mweir145 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:27 pm

The Hound unsurprisingly won his fight, but Beric apparently has as many lives as Thoros can give him. Those two are certainly an interesting pair (and Thoros seems to have much better intentions than the other red priest on the show, Melisandre).

Robb reminded me of his father when he executed Karstark for killing the Lannister children. Pretty intense scene. Rather than being practical and keeping his army intact as everyone around him wanted him to, he decided to enact a death sentence for Karstark's treason. Robb stuck with honor and justice there, but it may cost him any real shot of winning the war without the Frey's help.

We saw Stannis' family (who seem to be kept far away from everyone else) for the first time, including his disfigured daughter that I don't believe we knew he had and his wife that appears far more crazy than he is. Odd family relationship for an odd character.

We also saw another side of Jaime that had only really been insinuated before through bits and pieces of his dialogue in the first two seasons. That was truly a great scene with him and Brienne in the bath. He may not be an honorable man in the way that Ned and Barristan Selmy were/are, but he's clearly a much more prudent one. If he didn't act how he did and break his vows the Mad King would have killed the city's entire population with wildfire. Jaime has slowly become one of my favorites on the show, he is clearly a much deeper character than he first appeared.
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Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby GiantsFan14 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:39 pm

I'd like Jaime a hell of a lot if he hadn't banged his sister and pushed Bran off that tower. He's been pretty awesome this season.
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Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby bleach168 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:48 am

mweir145 wrote:Robb reminded me of his father when he executed Karstark for killing the Lannister children. Pretty intense scene. Rather than being practical and keeping his army intact as everyone around him wanted him to, he decided to enact a death sentence for Karstark's treason. Robb stuck with honor and justice there, but it may cost him any real shot of winning the war without the Frey's help.



I believe they used the same chilling music as the Theon beheading Rodrick Cassel scene.
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