Game of Thrones (no book spoilers) - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to General Talk

Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby bleach168 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:05 pm

Littlefinger is my favorite character. Did I mention how much I dislike the actor who plays Littlefinger? Why is he whispering everything? And why is he slurring his words to the point where he doesn't emphasize anything? Littlefinger is supposed to be secretly plotting, but publicly amicable. He is not supposed to come off so shady. How is he supposed to be able to gain absolute trust of those around him when he acts like a total jackass.

I stole this from the internet (slightly edited to avoid spoilers),

Lying awake one sleepless night, this troper had the following epiphany: Littlefinger is The Hero of the story. I'll say it again. Petyr Baelish, AKA Littlefinger, is the hero of the story. Or at least he would be, if this was a traditional fantasy story. Think about it: he starts out the heir to basically nothing, but is still forced to spend all of his childhood associating with the super powerful, most of whom refuse to even call him by his given name. Also, he has the disadvantage of being small and weak in a society that values strength above all else. Despite this, he manages through his own cleverness and force of personality to launch a successful career in politics, eventually becoming one the kings most trusted advisers. And just to increase his woobiness factor, lets say that not only does he fail to get the girl, but she goes off and marries someone she's never even met. And then his rebound girl gets married off to someone she's never met. Now, if this were a traditional story, Littlefinger would find a way to overcome his adversity, win Cat back, and be recognized by the nobility as the valuable ally that he is. Except this isn't a traditional story, so Littlefinger's victory is pyrrhic at best; no matter how valuable he is to the nobles, they'll never consider him to one of them; he'll always be an outsider. And even his material success in rendered meaningless by the fact that the women he loves isn't at his side. Soon, his disillusionment turns to bitterness, and then his bitterness becomes hate. And then he decides that if he can't get his happy ending, then no one will. And thus, the best villain ever was born. This also explains his relationship with Sansa Stark. As is explained above, Sansa is meant to represent the traditional fantasy heroine — i.e. someone who believes in happy endings, like Littlefinger used to before he became disillusioned. He sees a bit of himself in her, and that's why he actually gives a bleep about her, something he is pretty much incapable of doing for anyone else. So in short: the deconstruction of The Hero is, in fact, The Big Bad. GRRM is a fucking genius. —Taelor

Adding to that: if this were a traditional story, Cately would still love Littlefinger, and the best Ned Stark could get from her would be respect, so when he would get out of the way (probably by banishment), she would gladly fall in Littlefinger's arms - and since he is now a noble and thus suitable they would happily marry and this would be presented as Littlefinger ultimately overcoming all (and presented as Happy Ending). Except here Cately came to love Ned (as quite probably in such circumstances), and then he was executed rather than banished, (since the great Chess Master Littlefinger simply didn't account for Joffrey's brutality), and Catelyn went mad with grief as a result, rendering the whole thing into an ultimately futile Moral Event Horizon for Littlefinger.
"And so he spoke, and so he spoke, that lord of Castamere. But now the rains weep o'er his hall, with no one there to hear." - The Rains of Castamere
bleach168
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy Expert
Posts: 5058
(Past Year: 16)
Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby mweir145 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:23 pm

No backstabber of Ned is going to be a favourite of mine (although Ned really was too trusting for his own good).
25
mweir145
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Eagle Eye
Posts: 16784
(Past Year: 4)
Joined: 3 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Toronto

Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby bleach168 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:25 pm

mweir145 wrote:No backstabber of Ned is going to be a favourite of mine (although Ned really was too trusting for his own good).


I'm not so sure Petyr was planning on backstabbing Ned. I think he honestly wanted Ned to be in power because Petyr thought Ned would be easily manipulated. But when Petyr saw the Lannisters buy the City Watch with a Harrenhal lordship, he knew he couldn't compete with that and it was time to jump ship.

Meanwhile, I don't know how Varys comes off smelling of roses. He really is no different from Littlefinger yet everyone likes him. That's what makes Varys so dangerous.
"And so he spoke, and so he spoke, that lord of Castamere. But now the rains weep o'er his hall, with no one there to hear." - The Rains of Castamere
bleach168
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy Expert
Posts: 5058
(Past Year: 16)
Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby Tavish » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:32 pm

bleach168 wrote:Meanwhile, I don't know how Varys comes off smelling of roses. He really is no different from Littlefinger yet everyone likes him. That's what makes Varys so dangerous.

I think the difference between the two as far as perception goes is that their motivations tend to come from different places. Varys tends to present the "I do what I do for the kingdom" type while Littlefinger is the "I do what I do for me" type.
Image

Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11070
(Past Year: 25)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby Tavish » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:43 pm

I was talking to my wife about the characters (she hasn't read any of the books) and this was pretty much her division on the characters from what I've gathered.

Good guys:
The Stark kids (plus Jon)
Daenerys and friends
Tyrion
Brienne
Varys
Samwell

Bad guys:
Lannisters (minus Tyrion and including Joffrey)
Stannis
Greyjoys
Littlefinger

Not sure:
Tyrells
Mance
Image

Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11070
(Past Year: 25)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby Mookie4ever » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:22 pm

Tavish wrote:I was talking to my wife about the characters (she hasn't read any of the books) and this was pretty much her division on the characters from what I've gathered.

Good guys:
The Stark kids (plus Jon)
Daenerys and friends
Tyrion
Brienne
Varys
Samwell

Bad guys:
Lannisters (minus Tyrion and including Joffrey)
Stannis
Greyjoys
Littlefinger

Not sure:
Tyrells
Mance


Don't know what you mean by good and bad. If you're talking good/cool guys. Take Sansa, bran, ned, Cat, Sam and brienne off the good list. They suck. Put Jamie, Arya, and all the Greyjoys (we do not sow), bron, the blackfish and jon connington on the list and put OberynMartell and Jaqen on the very cool list.

I think that the casting has been spot on. The actor who plays Joffrey is excellent as are Jamie, Varys, Danys and of course dinklage.
Image
Mookie4ever
Head Moderator
Head Moderator

User avatar
ModeratorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterHockey ModBasketball ModFootball ModMatchup Meltdown ChampionPick 3 Weekly WinnerSweet 16 SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 19545
(Past Year: 277)
Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Hakuna, Montana

Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby Tavish » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:30 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:Don't know what you mean by good and bad.

Senators/Leafs
Image

Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11070
(Past Year: 25)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby mweir145 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:23 am

bleach168 wrote:
mweir145 wrote:No backstabber of Ned is going to be a favourite of mine (although Ned really was too trusting for his own good).


I'm not so sure Petyr was planning on backstabbing Ned. I think he honestly wanted Ned to be in power because Petyr thought Ned would be easily manipulated. But when Petyr saw the Lannisters buy the City Watch with a Harrenhal lordship, he knew he couldn't compete with that and it was time to jump ship.

Littlefinger was going to side with whoever would give him more power/assets/preferential treatment. He saw the Lannisters as the better route for him and backstabbed Ned as a result. What was better for the realm didn't even enter into it (although I'm not sure Ned's plan to put crazy, stare at the ocean all day Stannis in charge would have been much better). The fact that he was backing a sadistic sociopath in Joffrey as king didn't matter to Littlefinger in the slightest.

Tavish wrote:
bleach168 wrote:Meanwhile, I don't know how Varys comes off smelling of roses. He really is no different from Littlefinger yet everyone likes him. That's what makes Varys so dangerous.

I think the difference between the two as far as perception goes is that their motivations tend to come from different places. Varys tends to present the "I do what I do for the kingdom" type while Littlefinger is the "I do what I do for me" type.

Bingo. That seems to be the main difference between them and why I actually like Varys.
25
mweir145
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Eagle Eye
Posts: 16784
(Past Year: 4)
Joined: 3 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Toronto

Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby mweir145 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:37 am

Tavish wrote:I was talking to my wife about the characters (she hasn't read any of the books) and this was pretty much her division on the characters from what I've gathered.

Good guys:
The Stark kids (plus Jon)
Daenerys and friends
Tyrion
Brienne
Varys
Samwell

Bad guys:
Lannisters (minus Tyrion and including Joffrey)
Stannis
Greyjoys
Littlefinger

Not sure:
Tyrells
Mance

Agree on your "goods." Those characters have shown empathy for others regularly so far. They clearly care about something beyond just themselves. Count Davos Seaworth among them as well.

There are quite a few morally ambiguous characters, though, like Jaime (who has his own unique kind of moral code...he helped Brienne the other week and of course killed the Mad King despite his vows), Theon (who has been put into a difficult spot between the two houses he has ties with leading to bad choices, but he saved Bran and Robb's lives in S1 and shows feelings of remorse for his actions), and the Hound (who stepped in to save Loras Tyrell from his brother and helped protect Sansa over the first two seasons).

I'm not sure Stannis is "bad" so much as he's become completely obsessed with that one goal of becoming king. He's also clearly under the influence of Melisandre, so it's hard to know his true nature.
25
mweir145
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Eagle Eye
Posts: 16784
(Past Year: 4)
Joined: 3 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Toronto

Re: Game of Thrones (no book spoilers)

Postby bleach168 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:05 pm

Tavish wrote:
bleach168 wrote:Meanwhile, I don't know how Varys comes off smelling of roses. He really is no different from Littlefinger yet everyone likes him. That's what makes Varys so dangerous.

I think the difference between the two as far as perception goes is that their motivations tend to come from different places. Varys tends to present the "I do what I do for the kingdom" type while Littlefinger is the "I do what I do for me" type.


What has Varys actually done for the kingdom? Like Littlefinger, he supported the Mad King, Robert, and now Joffrey. Like Littlefinger, he supported killing Dany and almost kills her with the assassin he sent. He doesn't do anything for Sansa. He just stood by while Ned got destroyed.

Varys does help Tyrion, who is clearly a good guy. Though, Tyrion is on the Lannisters side who are clearly bad guys. So is he helping Tyrion or the Lannisters? The "I do what I do for the kingdom" proclamation can be construed in so many ways that I can't credit it as being good intentioned. For example, Tywin honestly thinks he's doing what is best for the kingdom.
"And so he spoke, and so he spoke, that lord of Castamere. But now the rains weep o'er his hall, with no one there to hear." - The Rains of Castamere
bleach168
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy Expert
Posts: 5058
(Past Year: 16)
Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

PreviousNext

Return to General Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Friday, Oct. 24
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Kansas City at San Francisco
(8:07 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact