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Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby GiantsFan14 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:23 pm

AHF wrote:This all only makes sense if the performance enhancement is significant.


Or if players believe that it is significant.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby AHF » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:35 pm

GiantsFan14 wrote:
AHF wrote:This all only makes sense if the performance enhancement is significant.


Or if players believe that it is significant.


Agreed. The time period over which both athletes and others have invested substantial amounts of money and risked legal, reputational, and professional damage lends a lot of credence to the idea that there is some "there" there. When the people who have money on the line put it on the line to use steroids (and not just the athletes) continue to do it 40-50 years into the steroid process that says something. There is a lot of money on the line to piss away on something that doesn't have any significant effect.

Follow the money, and you usually cut past the rhetoric and arrive at the truth.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Skin Blues » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:43 pm

People that cork their bats beg to differ. There's a lot of money to be made by crooked trainers, and therefore a lot of incentive to feed them BS. I'm not saying steroids don't help, but just because athletes believe they work miracles doesn't make it so.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby AHF » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:00 pm

Just one last note on the ethics here, I'll quote from someone that the steroid advocates respect when I say that using steroids is at best an attempt to cheat and at worst is actually cheating (depending on the significance of the performance enhancement). Deregulate them all or bring the hammer down on those who use them.

"If there is an unfairness about PED use, it is that owing to their tabu status, they are not equally available to any who might want them. Those who are willing to risk detection or opprobrium can obtain whatever advantage they may or may not confer in a given sport, while those equally interested but cowed by the regulatory and acceptability climate are denied whatever those gains might or might not be." -- Eric Walker

If we are uncertain of the effects, we have no such gray area about the intent. The intent is to cheat.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby kab21 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:57 pm

AHF wrote:
kab21 wrote:I really don't have any issues with players using PED's now. They know if they get caught they will be punished and they should know that blood testing is more effective than urine testing.


I have an issue as long as it is against the rules and has been since 1971 when baseball's drug policy banned drugs used "without a valid prescription." (Later clarifications beginning in 1991 called out steroids specifically.) As long as the rules say you can't use something, I have an issue with someone who cheats - whether they beat the system or are caught. I likewise have an issue with people who doctor the ball, cork their bat, etc. as well.

If they open it up so that everyone is free to do it or not at their own discretion then I won't have an issue with anyone who makes that choice either way. That will then be allowed under the rules.


Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't want anyone doing PED's but I'm not going to demonize any users. they get busted and they do their time. I also expect the MLB's steroid policy to strengthen in the future.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby bigh0rt » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:54 pm

Is the "there's no evidence they even help" argument the worst argument of all-time or what? If they didn't help, people wouldn't use them.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby thedude » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:01 pm

How about you actually read medical peer reviewed articles:

http://www.afboard.com/library/Effects% ... hletes.pdf

Steroids help build muscle. It really is not hard to find studies proving that point.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby SpecialFNK » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:06 pm

just adding muscle doesn't necessarily mean every player that does so will hit more HR. seems every spring there are multiple players that come to camp bigger and stronger, but some end up being worse during the season because they can't swing the bat the same.
it's not just a power/HR thing. Alex Sanchez was suspended for steroids in 2005. he barely had any power at all.

how much do steroids and other banned PED help more than say over the counter supplements? just taking steroids (or other banned PED) alone don't just add the muscle by them self. you still need to actually work out yes?

there are over the counter supplements that a player can take to help add muscle, along with working out. so what makes them usable and steroids not?
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:08 pm

thedude wrote:How about you actually read medical peer reviewed articles:

http://www.afboard.com/library/Effects% ... hletes.pdf

Steroids help build muscle. It really is not hard to find studies proving that point.


Anabolic steroids do, what players use today are not anabolic steroids though. What players use today are mostly about trying to keep a player healthy and at 100% longer which also obviously is going to help since most players don't play the full season at 100%.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Padsin05 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:56 am

what always seems to be omitted from every discussion on steroids are these 2 facts.

1) Baseball is a very long season, the dog days of summer can be very tiresome, personally I believe that Cal Ripken in order to continue out his streak had to use something, I kinda went off what I was getting at, but the point is, using steroids without a doubt helps your body recover faster, that means more time can be spent conditioning or strength training, which in turns keeps you at the top of your game for a higher % of the season.

2) Steroids, without a doubt do increase homeruns. Why I have never seen a study of this baffles me. Its basic kinetics. The stronger you are the faster you can move an object. Bat Speed helps hit homeruns, that is a fact we all know, and steroids which makes you stronger without a doubt lightens the bat. Try it for yourself, you dont even need to do steroids, get a 30 oz bat, and a 22 oz bat, and let me know which one you can swing faster. The same applies to the masses. If Bonds used a 34-31 bat his entire career, and then started juicing that bat would feel lighter and lighter as he got stronger and stronger, its basic weight training, its why you start with less weight and build up more weight as you build, you can bench at the same speed whether its 120lbs or 200 lbs once your body is conditioned, but drop back down to 120lbs after doing 200 for a yr, and youll be able to pump out the reps much faster. So what this allows them to do is 2 fold. Use the same bat they are comfortable with and generate much more bat speed, or use a larger bat, that now feels like the bat you were used to, which generates more power, has a larger sweet spot and can now cover a greater amount of the plate. A lot of Mcgwires '98 hrs were hit like this, hell no 62 was an ugly ass swing that his bat just reached out and poked.

I am not a scientist, and while none of this is 100% facts, its common sense and knowledge. What I do know is that after doing 1 cycle between my sophomore and junior year in college, I was able to go from 145lbs and hitting 2 hrs, to 190 lbs and 11 hrs, maybe I was just maturing, but I will give credit where credit is due, my 33-30 Easton felt like a twig from 1 yr to the next
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