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Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:07 am

Ryan Braun: The most obvious name on the list. Braun failed a drug test once before and got off on a technicality. If Braun is found to have failed again nobody would even bat an eyelash


While I wouldn't bat an eyelash it is silly that people still call this a technicality. It just shows how much influence ESPN has on people.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby GiantsFan14 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:10 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:I have a question. I don't think this has been a situation before. but if these players are suspended, could they/the Yankees split when they are suspended? like say Granderson takes his 50 from the beginning of the season. could Cano take his say during the middle of the season? or do they all have to be suspended right from when they get suspended? I know there can be an appeal, but an appeal doesn't take long to happen.


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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:19 pm

Actually an appeal can take a very long time. Braun's positive test was in October and his appeal wasn't over until February so it took 4 months after the positive to finish the process. That might have taken a bit longer than normal since he had a very real appeal and not just a drrr I don't know what I took type.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby AHF » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:51 pm

Ender wrote:
Ryan Braun: The most obvious name on the list. Braun failed a drug test once before and got off on a technicality. If Braun is found to have failed again nobody would even bat an eyelash


While I wouldn't bat an eyelash it is silly that people still call this a technicality. It just shows how much influence ESPN has on people.


I think they are using it in this sense:

Defeating a drug grievance on the merits means showing that the sample didn't demonstrate PED use or that the PED use was allowable under the MLB drug policy.

Defeating a grievance on a technicality means you don't win on the merits but challenge the results on procedural grounds.

His approach to his defense was the equivalent of a case where the police find drugs in your home and you don't try to deny the drugs or claim they weren't yours, you simply argue that the police didn't have legal cause to enter your premises and therefore the evidence they gathered can't be used. If he wins on that ground, the case is dismissed. If he loses, he hasn't raised other arguments and he will be nailed on the possession charge.

Braun didn't contest the accuracy of the sample or offer an explanation for why the results would be permissible under MLB policy as part of the arbitration (what he said to the press about the sample being inaccurate or tampered with was a very different spin than his position in the arbitration where these were not disputed issues). So if Braun had lost on procedural grounds he would have had no defense and would have been suspended. In that sense, it was a technicality or procedural issue that won the day for him.

Procedural due process is a very important right that shouldn't be minimized but it is different from substantive defenses.

* * * *

Two more points: (1) That explanation on the previous page for this report doesn't fill me with confidence about its accuracy. (2) If there are actual charges, it may not be a quick resolution if the players dispute the tests but I do expect it would be faster than the Braun case because the Braun case was an offseason matter where time was less of the essence than it would be during the middle of the season.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby mweir145 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:27 pm

jfg wrote:
mweir145 wrote:MLB needs to sweep this under the rug. Both for the sake of my fantasy team and to preserve the idea that the "PED era" is over.


If the media is never going to let it go, the best thing they can do is throw stars under the bus and continue to do it until players are scared out of their minds to take the risk. Baseball will never be rid of it's PED problem until the media stops the witch hunt and that's not happening until they don't think they have anything to look for anymore. Balco, Biogenesis and whatever the next lab is will keep making headlines. I'm not saying it's right, but it's the only way that baseball is ever going to wash their hands of this.

It won't work. The dopers are always way ahead of the testers and the significant incentives will continue to be there to use to become better players. The only real solution to this problem, of course, is to cease making it a problem at all by legalizing. But you can cue the moral outrage to that suggestion.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby mweir145 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:32 pm

Ender wrote:Or they need to bring out the ugly truth about gambling etc from the past. This game has never been clean and neither have most sports in the US.

Sure, but it wouldn't exactly help the image they've developed that there has been some kind of change since the 90s. Sweep it under. There is no benefit to have their stars go down in this fashion.

And if I don't have Braun for the full 162 in 2013, I'm done in fantasy before it even starts.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:53 pm

I think they are using it in this sense:

Defeating a drug grievance on the merits means showing that the sample didn't demonstrate PED use or that the PED use was allowable under the MLB drug policy.


I know how they are using it, they are just using it incorrectly. The guy didn't deliver it on time even though there are a dozen UPS stores here that were still open within 15 minutes of Miller Park. The guy took the sample home and left it sitting on a desk in his basement instead of keeping it refrigerated. Then he took another 6 hours to get it to UPS on Monday. Braun's team was able to recreate a false positive test by not storing a sample at the proper temperature. There was an Olympic athlete that got a false positive the exact same way and beat it the exact same way.

What MLB and ESPN are doing is trying to hide the fact that the MLB testing was flawed. This wasn't a technicality, it was a screw up, a tainted sample that should have been dumped and never tested.

That doesn't mean Braun wasn't guilty, it just means there is no way to know. It could have been a positive because he was using, it could have been a positive because storing a sample at room temperature screws up the sample, there is just no way to know.

http://www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/02/rya ... important/

Now if you stuck a gun to my head I'd say he uses. Too many arrows pointing in that direction now and he played college in Miami which seems to be at the heart of a lot of steroid stories. But Braun did not get off on a technicality, he got off on a tainted sample.

And if I don't have Braun for the full 162 in 2013, I'm done in fantasy before it even starts.


Maybe in an auction league. In a draft league he is enough better than Cabrera that you can use 112 games of Braun and 50 games of a replacement guy and get pretty much the same value. He is that far ahead of Cabrera in value.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby mzu » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:22 pm

None of these names would surprise me but it would be MAJOR news. It's just sad that this whole PED thing is still going on...let's move on, 90% of the league did them, does them and will do them in the future.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby jcook3127 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:47 pm

What kills me is the way they crucify these guys...

For instance, who in their right mind is doubting that Ty Cobb would've juiced his ass off if he played in this era? Crickets, and rightfully so.

The other thing that gets me is the idea that these guys would not be the cream of the crop had they not juiced. This one is just ridiculous. If anybody thinks that Bonds, Manny, A-Rod, Clemens, etc. wouldn't be among the elite players in any era they are just fooling themselves...

Did a few dozen doubles turn into homers? Yes. When you account for outfield fence variability, that factor is even further minimized. Did it help guys stay on the field and recover? Yes. Both of those, from a marketing stand point, profitability stand point, and fan enjoyment stand point were extremely beneficial to Major League Baseball. Are PED's the difference between a good or bad baseball player? Absolutely Not. Case in point: Alex Sanchez, the first guy busted.

Babe Ruth slammed hot dogs and beer PRE-GAME. That was the era. Now, everything is so fine tuned with nutrition and supplements and workout regimens. I really do not care if anybody is using a supplement if they think it'll be beneficial to them. I don't care as a fan..I wouldn't care as a clean major leaguer. "Oh but what about the millions they are gaining on you in contracts by cheating?" Listen bro, that guy makes millions more because he's flat out better than me in every aspect of the game, not because his whey protein shakes have a little extra in them. The Media and old timers need to get over themselves. The war on steroids is ruining baseball...not steroids.
Why don't they just get a house that's already painted?
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Kimbos Beard » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:55 pm

Ender wrote:
I think they are using it in this sense:

Defeating a drug grievance on the merits means showing that the sample didn't demonstrate PED use or that the PED use was allowable under the MLB drug policy.


I know how they are using it, they are just using it incorrectly. The guy didn't deliver it on time even though there are a dozen UPS stores here that were still open within 15 minutes of Miller Park. The guy took the sample home and left it sitting on a desk in his basement instead of keeping it refrigerated. Then he took another 6 hours to get it to UPS on Monday. Braun's team was able to recreate a false positive test by not storing a sample at the proper temperature. There was an Olympic athlete that got a false positive the exact same way and beat it the exact same way.

What MLB and ESPN are doing is trying to hide the fact that the MLB testing was flawed. This wasn't a technicality, it was a screw up, a tainted sample that should have been dumped and never tested.

That doesn't mean Braun wasn't guilty, it just means there is no way to know. It could have been a positive because he was using, it could have been a positive because storing a sample at room temperature screws up the sample, there is just no way to know.

http://www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/02/rya ... important/

Now if you stuck a gun to my head I'd say he uses. Too many arrows pointing in that direction now and he played college in Miami which seems to be at the heart of a lot of steroid stories. But Braun did not get off on a technicality, he got off on a tainted sample.


Maybe in an auction league. In a draft league he is enough better than Cabrera that you can use 112 games of Braun and 50 games of a replacement guy and get pretty much the same value. He is that far ahead of Cabrera in value.


I don't think this is accurate at all. I think the sample was sealed and stored and the tester put the sample in the refrigerator in his basement. They beat it because the arbitrator wanted him to deliver it to a Fedex location even if it wasn't going to go out that day and leave it there.

I've also read reports from plenty of drug testing facilities which said doing what the tester did would never result in the test producing the results that it did.

I don't think there is a question that Braun had good lawyers who were able to find a loophole and use it.

What Braun did which was annoying was give that ridiculous self-righteous speech after they threw the test out. That was absurd. He probably did PED's and he beat the system. Whatever, its baseball its not life or death, just don't then pretend everyone is an idiot and talk about how you are a victim and there must be changes.
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