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Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Art Vandelay » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:19 pm

thedude wrote:
jlm53089 wrote:First person punished for PEDs..... Alex Sanchez.

Career Homeruns: 6


LL Cool J was alleged to have used steroids

Career Home runs: zero

This post didn't get the recognition it deserves.

Also, nobody in this thread is even thinking about the children. It's like I don't even know the cafe anymore.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby SpecialFNK » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:55 pm

saw this on rotoworld.
Jeff Passan of Yahoo! Sports reports that Major League Baseball "is honing in on Alex Rodriguez and Ryan Braun as two main targets" in their probe of the Biogenesis clinic.
Passan writes that, "in addition to being the two biggest names in the Biogenesis logbooks, Rodriguez and Braun have in the past provided MLB with information about alleged PED use the league believes to be false." One source involved told Yahoo! Sports that "there's no question in my mind they want those two guys." This certainly doesn't sound good for two of baseball's biggest stars. MLB has already suspended Cesar Carrillo 100 games due to "unsatisfactory" cooperation in related to the Biogenesis probe, and it sure sounds like more suspensions could be coming.


going to really suck for those drafting Braun in the 1st round.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:11 pm

I'm not going to go line by line over all of this skin blues. You believe random sources supplied by ESPN, I believe random sources supplied by people I trust a lot more than the mainstream media. We aren't going to find a common ground because your mind is already made up. I don't know whether he is guilty or not because there is a real shadow of doubt placed over everything by what I have heard and the fact that ALL of this info is anonymous because nobody close to the case is allowed to actually talk about it. So for every he got off on a technicality thing you can throw at me I can throw back the exact opposite and neither of us are ever going to be able to prove it until the gag order is lifted.

What we do know is he didn't get off because the sample was delivered late because that isn't really against the rules of testing. We know the sample was not stored as well as it could have been because the guy delivering it admitted as much. Yet both of these things get thrown around like they are truth even though they are the only two things we actually know are facts. I mean some of them go so far as to say he tested positive for synthetic testosterone which can't even be tested for.

http://www.baseballnation.com/2012/2/28 ... o-laurenzi
http://www.tomsarazac.com/tom/opinions/ ... _d13C.html

You know who does know the full story. Shyam Das. He felt he had enough evidence that something was not right that he ruled not guilty and then MLB were idiots about it and fired the guy yet somehow people are still on Braun's case instead of attacking MLB for their procedures.

I mean you can read this excellent thread from the hardballtimes that covers what we do know, what we have heard and what is rubbish if you really want but I'm not going to rehash it all again.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_ ... hnicality/

But again I don't know that he is innocent or guilty. Even if they can reproduce the tests causing false positives doesn't mean the original wasn't a real positive, there just is no way for us to know it. I would add that taking steroids during the only time window(playoffs) that the players KNOW they are going to be tested would be really foolish and adds even more doubt to my mind on the subject. As does the rumors that the other 2 Brewers tested that day had elevated but still legal levels.

Also if you do a search on Braun and Passan you'll find it is a personal thing with him. He has some sort of real grudge against Braun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Modahl

The woman's name is Diane Modahl btw. Her steroid suspension was overturned because it was left on a table in 35 degree heat and she was able to prove that storing it at that temp could taint the sample. I live in Wisconsin and it isn't 35 degrees in my basement at any time which is where the sample taker says he left his.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Skin Blues » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:34 pm

I'm not believing anybody. All I'm doing is asking for a source that the failed test is repeatable. That's it. Pretty simple but you keep dodging all over the place. Why else would you be 100% certain that he never failed a test and that he won't be suspended? You can't possibly be certain, so the only assumption I can make is that you just wish to believe Braun didn't fail a test and are looking for anything to support that ideal. I don't know why you're obsessed with him. The guy has already been suspended once and got off on an appeal, and is now in the center of a very big, very ugly steroid scandal in which the government and MLB are already investigating, and he has admitted an association with the ring leader as his steroid advisor, haha. Oh, and his old friend has already been suspended 100 games for not cooperating. And this is the guy that you choose to defend as 100% no-way-no-how could he ever be suspended. Just seems very odd.

Ender wrote:You know who does know the full story. Shyam Das. He felt he had enough evidence that something was not right that he ruled not guilty and then MLB were idiots about it and fired the guy yet somehow people are still on Braun's case instead of attacking MLB for their procedures.

I've criticized them multiple times, precisely for firing Shyam Das. Probably in this very thread, but I'm not gonna go looking for it.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Skin Blues » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:23 am

Ender wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Modahl

The woman's name is Diane Modahl btw. Her steroid suspension was overturned because it was left on a table in 35 degree heat and she was able to prove that storing it at that temp could taint the sample. I live in Wisconsin and it isn't 35 degrees in my basement at any time which is where the sample taker says he left his.

Looked into this because it was interesting. It was 37C that Prof. Gaskell was able to duplicate a false-positive for Modahl. 37C is 99F. For 72 hours. He also ran the test twice, with the first test not showing any difference between a normal sample and a sample kept in an oven for 3 days at 99F. The second test showed increased T:E ratio in the sample kept in an oven. Also, he didn't show that it increased testosterone levels, he showed that it lowered epitestosterone levels. Maybe that's semantics, but there are easy ways to artificially increase epitestosterone levels anyway (this is what Conte did with his clients) which is why they re-test samples that show a T:E ratio above 4:1 to see if it is synthetic or natural. And it's not difficult to test for synthetic testosterone, I don't know where you heard it's impossible. It's a separate carbon isotope test that costs about $200. This is how Melky and Bartolo were busted last season. There was a lot in that link that didn't really say much about hwo the test is not reliable, so maybe highlight a portion of it that disproves this isotope testing. Pretty crazy to be having a discussion about chemistry on a fantasy baseball forum, but I went to school for it so might as well put that to some use.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:56 am

The IRMS test is very flawed and again it doesn't test for synthetic testosterone specifically. It is another test that is trying to isolate that it isn't natural. It can find other things than synthetic testosterone and not differentiate it. All they are doing is comparing carbon 13 ratios which vary by subject and are influenced by all kinds of things other than testosterone.

http://www.tomsarazac.com/tom/opinions/ ... again.html

One group did study this test and found that at minimum 1 out of 31 samples tested would give a false positive on this test and it might be more like 1 in 25. When you introduced a tainted sample into the mix I'd imagine that number skyrockets because again it isn't testing for synthetic testosterone, it is testing natural levels of things in the sample, levels which are all out of whack when you don't store them properly.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby KULCAT » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:58 am

I remember about 7-8 years ago there was a guy in these boards defending Barry Bonds. He'd post links to articles in the 90´s proving that Barry was "working out harder than ever" and the he was trying a "new approach to strengh training" even though Barry weighted about 40 pounds more than in 1997 and everything made perfect sense to him. He was absolutely convinced that in time all of the public perception wouldturn and people and the media would be proven wrong. Im sure he is still around and he is watching this debate and saying to himself "thats how i looked back in the day"
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:04 am

Two very different situations though and I'm not defending Braun I'm saying that we don't know what happened because everyone is touting sources as their opinion. Sources have basically vindicated him but they aren't ok with some people because they are anonymous, yet the only people who say he just got off on a technicality are just touting sources as their reason. Realize that you are being hypocritical when you do that, that is all I ask. There are three opinions on the subject and two of them wrong. The one that says he is innocent, the one that says he is guilty and the one that says we can't know because conflicting information has been put out there and depending on which sources are accurate the opinion changes completely.

I attack people who say he got it overturned so he must be innocent too, both opinions are wrong.

I don't expect to change anyone's opinion on the internet, I'm painfully aware that 90% of the population blindly believes anything they hear on the news and ESPN and MLB network are tilting the story heavily in one direction but I at least have to show that my opinion is based on something logical.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Skin Blues » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:01 pm

Ender wrote:I'm painfully aware that 90% of the population blindly believes anything they hear on the news and ESPN and MLB network are tilting the story heavily in one direction but I at least have to show that my opinion is based on something logical.

And I assume you, the man who says there is 100% no way in the world Braun is suspended because there isn't enough evidence, falls into that 90%. Correct? hahaha...
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby KULCAT » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:07 pm

Ender wrote:
I don't expect to change anyone's opinion on the internet, I'm painfully aware that 90% of the population blindly believes anything they hear on the news and ESPN and MLB network are tilting the story heavily in one direction but I at least have to show that my opinion is based on something logical.


Yeah the Bonds guy was just as condescending as you are. His argument basically the same. Media is for you the sheep, even though your main argument comes from info that was also published on ESPN and Yahoo.
For a guy who is guilt free Braun sure gets connected to PED scandals. Im sure someone in Biogenesis made a mistake and was probably writing a paper on steroids and Eva Braun
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