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Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Skin Blues » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:18 pm

I've used GCMS machines and all sorts of analytical equipment, and yeah they're extremely accurate. However, as with all analytical instruments, there are also interferents to consider, detection limits, yada yada yada. Not to mention contamination. I assume they're running the labs for these things like a well-oiled machine and know exactly what they're looking for (although I've seen corporations bigger than MLB screw up simple analysis on a pretty wide scale) but differing chemistry between differently designed steroids/PEDs is not easy to detect. You'd need tons of different standards to test against. And until you know exactly what people are taking you can't test for it, or even have it on the banned substances list for that matter.

Seems like the minor league guys will be suspended at will, in an attempt to get them to talk. They don't have the MLBPA behind them so they're sitting ducks. And the information from BioGenesis has been subpoenaed if I'm not mistaken, so I don't think anybody is 100% out of the woods. I'm sure MLB wants to make sure if they go after somebody in the MLBPA without a positive test, that they have an airtight case. Otherwise it would set a bad precedent for non-positive-test suspensions in the future. But then again, if an arbitrator rules in the player's favour then MLB can just fire him and make sure the next guy knows that his job depends on ruling in their favour.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:21 pm

ESPN reported Braun's urine which tested positive for the extraordinary high testosterone to epitestosterone ratio was re-tested, and a synthetic steroid was found. I don't know why MLB didn't choose to pursue that case again, or let the labs finish their analysis before going after him. Even if improper procedure was followed for the T:E ratio, that can't hide that a synthetic steroid was found in his urine. /rant.


There is no test for synthetic testosterone. Synthetic testosterone elevates your testosterone counts and that is how they test for it. The second test they ran was just a more precise version of the first that would have been flawed in the same way. Braun's side was able to reproduce a failed positive test by improper storage of the sample, the guy who took the sample admitted he just put it on his desk in his basement. Braun is not the first to show that a test was tainted in this way, This was a completely open and shut case and he was never really at risk of being suspended once it went to the arbitrator. The sample should have been thrown out before it was even tested given the improper handling of it. Baseball came out looking like idiots and looked even worse when they fired the independent arbitrator.

I'm not surprised they are going to go after Braun, there is nothing but bad blood there. Having said all that even with a tainted sample it could be a true positive, I'm not trying to say he is innocent, just that the testing system failed and there is no way they could use it to suspend him.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Skin Blues » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:31 pm

Ender wrote:Braun's side was able to reproduce a failed positive test by improper storage of the sample

Is there a source for this?
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:08 pm

http://www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/02/rya ... important/


Sources have told Carroll that the defense showed that the circumstances which led to the positive drug test was able to be repeated using the errors of the handler, which he explained on WEEI.

In shorter bursts, he explained it on Twitter as well (1/2/3/4/5)

Quit calling Braun decision a technicality, media. It was decided on science.

Repeatable result showed exactly how Braun’s single test showed positive. Arbitrator agreed. Simple, isn’t it?

Know what makes a good soundbite? “44 hours” and “FedEx”. Know what doesn’t? Technical details about urine flora.

Joe Sheehan: So the delay in processing the urine was repeated, and shown to be the cause of the high levels of T?

Will Carroll: More or less. It deserves an answer longer than 140.


He got the info from multiple sources. Braun at no point seemed worried about being suspended. The team never took any actions to protect against a suspension even though they had no backup OF. He isn't the first person to beat a test with this exact same info. They also went back and overturned a minor league suspension that was not handled properly.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/ ... verturned/

This wasn't just some technicality he got off on, it was a broken test. That doesn't mean his test would have been clean, it just means the test doesn't have any meaning. The guy did not store it properly and did not deliver it in the time frame he is supposed to, at that point the test can be a false positive.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Skin Blues » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:09 pm

Just hard to believe when it's always "I heard from a guy that heard from a guy". And when asked for an explanation they say that "more or less" it could be the cause of high T levels. Well, was it or wasn't it? Certainly doesn't sound like conclusive proof that simply leaving a urine sample to sit for 2 days causes false positives. If there WAS conclusive proof there'd probably be more info out there other than a tweet from Will Carroll.

For all we know, Braun's defense was that since chain of custody was not followed, somebody could have spiked the sample with testosterone, as opposed to testosterone creating itself out of thin air inside of a sealed container.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:23 pm

So you'll believe the hearsay when it comes from ESPN but not someone like Carroll who I would trust more? I mean "officially" no information has been released except he won the appeal. Everything we have heard has been from "sources". How do you explain the Olympic woman who beat her test the same way. Why would they go back and remove a suspension from a minor league guy who didn't even appeal because of this, there was no chain of custody involved in that case either.

Truth is everything is under a gag order so we can't hear what really happened from a direct source. We have to piece things together. That is why the media is able to pretty much completely influence what people believe.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Skin Blues » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:57 pm

Exactly, all we know is that he won his appeal. We don't know why. I'm not the one claiming we know why he won the appeal.

I do know is that it's very sketchy to suggest that testosterone synthesized itself inside of a sealed urine sample, regardless of the conditions it was kept in. Burden of proof comes into play here. You need to show how testosterone can create itself in a closed environment. You can't just say "I have a source who knows a guy that says Braun's defense team replicated the false positive".

It makes 1000x more sense that the test was ruled invalid simply because the guy didn't send it in until 2 days after he took the sample and COC was broken, opening it up to tampering. There are TONS of leaks suggesting the latter (essentially every single one of them) and nobody is denying it. Not Will Carroll, not anybody.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:21 am

You will believe what you want to but to me that explanation makes absolutely no sense to the facts we've seen. They wouldn't have gone back and unbanned the minor league guy where chain of custody was never in question. There have been others who proved improper handling can cause a false positive. If it was just based on chain of custody the team would have reacted differently. The got off on a technicality is just the media trying to save face. I'm going to trust Will Carroll who has no reason at all to lie over them for sure and they had multiple sources, not just one.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Skin Blues » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:52 pm

Ender wrote:They wouldn't have gone back and unbanned the minor league guy where chain of custody was never in question.

Do we know all of the details of the other guy? Or do we have the same shady details as the Braun case? I honestly don't know, I didn't follow the other guy's case at all.

Ender wrote:There have been others who proved improper handling can cause a false positive.

Source?

Ender wrote:If it was just based on chain of custody the team would have reacted differently.


Why? Maybe they were sure that a COC issue would lead to the suspension being overturned. Maybe they realized it was late enough into the spring that they couldn't have done anything significant to replace Braun. Maybe a thousand other things. It's not proof that the Brewers knew that testosterone could create itself inside of a sealed container. That's a very tenuous stretch of logic.

Ender wrote:I'm going to trust Will Carroll who has no reason at all to lie over them for sure and they had multiple sources, not just one.

It's not lying, it's twisting the truth in a way to separate himself from the masses and thus give himself some spotlight. Look how much attention this got him, and he didn't even have to reveal a source or give any detail whatsoever. He's been extremely vague about how the positive test could be replicated. For all we know, the replicated positive test could have been a guy tampering with the urine sample by adding testosterone to it. And the defense showed how this could be done without leaving evidence on the bottle itself. But the simple answer is never the one that people want to believe.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby West » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:13 pm

Just leave the Braun fanboy alone. It will all come out someday...
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