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Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:50 pm

Don't you think that if something else was the prevailing factor there would have been more than 3 people cranking out those numbers?

The only good argument to that is that those 3 would have been the elite power bats of that generation with or without steroids, but, I think Sammy Sosa debunks that theory.


No I don't think so. If steroids were the driving force we would have seen these numbers every year for 10 or 15 years straight since such a large portion of the player base was using back then. The fact those were focused into such a small period pretty much makes it impossible for steroids to be the driving force. Steroids might have made Sosa a 40+ HR a year guy, but something else made it jump to 60+.

McGwire walked into the league as a 40-45 HR type player. He likely got on the juice during his injury years and walked out of those as a 52/58 HR guy. Then expansion hit and the juiced balls and suddenly he was 65/70 HR guy. His talent gave me him a big chunk, steroids gave him another chunk and then other factors pushed it to the record levels.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Izenhart » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:52 pm

Mark McGwire was a mammoth HR hitter before the roids, give him a juiced ball and roids and boom 70 HR. What we are discussing is weather the juiced ball had more of an effect or the juice. I'm leaning toward ball, but drugs surely do help. How much it helps exactly cannot be accurately measured.
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Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby lastingsgriller » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:55 pm

To expand further, it just seems really odd to me that juiced balls were affecting Sammy Sosa so much differently than someone like Frank Thomas. You would think that juiced balls would really have a drastic affect on frank Thomas, seeing that he displayed such consistent power throughout his career.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby lastingsgriller » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:05 pm

Izenhart wrote:Mark McGwire was a mammoth HR hitter before the roids, give him a juiced ball and roids and boom 70 HR. What we are discussing is weather the juiced ball had more of an effect or the juice. I'm leaning toward ball, but drugs surely do help. How much it helps exactly cannot be accurately measured.


It's a fair argument in the case of McGuire. He always profiled as a elite power hitter. good luck explaining Sosa, though.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:09 pm

Frank Thomas's was already in decline by 1998. He had 4 straight years of falling ISO, his walk rate was falling, That is also when he was moved to DH full time which he didn't originally take to, he played through injuries in 1999 and then was hurt all of 2001. in 2000 he had his career high in HRs during that same period.

I don't think it really did much different for him.

I mean in 2000 you had Erstad suddenly hit 25 HR. You have the 2 years Helton hit 40+ which he never really approached again. Hidalgo suddenly hit 44 HR etc. There were all kinds of flukey looking guys in that range.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby GiantsFan14 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:13 pm

lastingsgriller wrote:What about the fact that all 6 of those 63 hr+ seasons just happen to come from 3 known steroid users?


I'm guessing an incredibly high percentage of players were using back then and it makes sense that guys who hit the most homeruns would be under the most scrutiny and more likely to get caught.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby GiantsFan14 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:14 pm

lastingsgriller wrote:
Izenhart wrote:Mark McGwire was a mammoth HR hitter before the roids, give him a juiced ball and roids and boom 70 HR. What we are discussing is weather the juiced ball had more of an effect or the juice. I'm leaning toward ball, but drugs surely do help. How much it helps exactly cannot be accurately measured.


It's a fair argument in the case of McGuire. He always profiled as a elite power hitter. good luck explaining Sosa, though.


He corked his bat, obv.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby lastingsgriller » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:56 pm

Ender wrote:Frank Thomas's was already in decline by 1998. He had 4 straight years of falling ISO, his walk rate was falling, That is also when he was moved to DH full time which he didn't originally take to, he played through injuries in 1999 and then was hurt all of 2001. in 2000 he had his career high in HRs during that same period.

I don't think it really did much different for him.

I mean in 2000 you had Erstad suddenly hit 25 HR. You have the 2 years Helton hit 40+ which he never really approached again. Hidalgo suddenly hit 44 HR etc. There were all kinds of flukey looking guys in that range.


He was a bit injury plagued in '98 and '99, sure. But, to look at his 95, 96, and 97 seasons and suggest that this is a player on the decline, is just wrong. It is also misleading to make implications about about 2000 being his career high in HR because 1) it wasn't a large jump to 43 from his previous high of 41 and 2) It's not like more balls were flying out of the park than when he hit 38 in 113 games in '94, or even 40 in 141 games in '96. you can pretty easily point to the fact that his career high in HR in 2000 is directly related to the fact that he played in 159 healthy games and not some juiced ball theory.

I think that it's safe to say that Thomas displayed incredibly consistent power through his career. if juiced balls were so effective that they could skyrocket Sosa from a 35-40 HR guy to a 60+ hr guy, consistently, You'd think we would be seen a bit more power bump from Thomas.
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Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby Ender » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:10 pm

Given that he broke his foot twice in that area, moved to a position he didn't care of and had all of his peripherals slide before it and that he is a big man going on the wrong side of 30 which is never a good thing, I think you are really reaching to try to make your point. I'm sure if you dig deep enough you'll find others who didn't suddenly spike but you do see tons of guys who did just out of the blue spike and rarely was it sustained like you would think for someone getting on steroids. Thomas himself admitted that he struggled mentally when they moved him to DH and that almost certainly had more to do with that bad year than anything else.
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Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby lastingsgriller » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:48 pm

My only real point here is that juiced balls appear to have affected Sammy Sosa way more than anyone else. I was just using big hurt as an example of someone with consistent power that was not affected in the same manner by the "juiced balls". There are plenty of other players I could use to illustrate the same point.

Juiced balls would have (and did) have a universal effect across the league. But Sosa's power surge was way more drastic than what the league saw. The reason for this was because, as we all know, he was sticking giant chemical-filled syringes up his corn hole.
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