Ender wrote:By advanced metrics Biggio is one of the top 10 2B in the history of the game so I'm not sure how he isn't elite. He put up a higher career WAR than Sandberg or Alomar who are both in and had a better peak than either of them. Biggio seems like a no doubt HOF.
As for the 10 vote thing. You have 15 years to get in so I just don't see the 10 slot rule to be a big problem. I don't think you want that many people voted in on the same year just from a logistics standpoint so I'm fine with it the way it is. It also will make more and more guys hang on for multiple seasons when they don't have a real shot of getting in and to me that is a large part of what is broken. Having guys hang around for 8 years at 15% just seems worthless. It isn't really causing any problems so I fail to see how it needs to be fixed.
We hope, but if there's 12-14 people that "deserve" to be in and people can only vote for 10, it's possible that the same guy ends up 12th to 14th in everyone's rankings, and doesn't even get enough votes to stay on the ballot. Also remember that not everyone is voting for 10 players.
So while several people stick to their steroid era guns and others that want to vote for particular players run out of room on the ballot, you could have a case where guys like Bagwell, Mussina, Edgar, etc. don't even get enough votes to stay on the ballot. Are they clear-cut Hall-of-Famers -- of course not. But do they deserve to hang around on the ballot? Definitely.
They should get rid of the guys who haven't covered baseball in the past decade. There's no reason to keep giving these guys ballots. "Who the hell is this Curt Schilling fellow?" says the guy who voted for Jack Morris.
GiantsFan14 wrote:The idea of a first ballot HOFer is dumb. You're either a HOFer or you aren't.
Agreed. If you have to think about if he put up the numbers to be a HOF'er, then he doesn't belong. Evenutally, the Hall is going to be watered down because players now and in the future will match the numbers and we'll think, "meh". We're thinking that with the 3,000 hit club now.
C-Doumit, Lucroy 1B- Fielder 2B-Pedroia SS-Castro 3B-Longoria CI- Lawrie MI- H. Rameriz OF-Cargo Jennings Heyward U-Morneau Markakis Brown
SP-Price Greinke Zimmerman Moore Anderson RP-Nathan McGee Doolittle Grilli
Sticky Spice wrote:The players act like the HOF is theirs. The voters act like the HOF is theirs. Both have the power to put guys in.
Until they create a HOF that is by and for the fans, they can stick their HOF up their arse.
So much that is wrong with sports is that the fans (THE CUSTOMERS) get no respect. Thank god for fantasy.
The fans you speak of do a pretty horrendous job voting for All-stars. That would be the absolute worst letting them vote for the HOF. The HOF voting by the writers is the best solution in an imperfect world (the players are even more biased than the writers imo). It does not mean it is perfect and it certainly is not without problems. The biggest issue is one of a standard as to what constitutes a HOf'er...i.e., there really isn't one? A subjective definition leads to subjective results which some would argue is just what Baseball wants because no one is debating the Ruth's or Gehrig's worthiness, they debate that of the marginally great so to speak. The issue has been compounded though in the past few decades by lowering the bar and letting in guys who are not truly great but were just good to very good players (see Kirby Puckett) and in some cases, politicians who lobbied and sucked up to either writers or the Veteran's committee and have no business being in the hall at all imo (see Ozzie Smith and his .666 OPS, Bill Mazeroski and his one HR in the WS, etc.). If great fielding alone got guys in the Hall, then Mark Belanger and Bert Campaneris would be in as well so obviously someone somewhere lowered the bar to let in weak hitting middle infielders who hosted tv shows and did backflips on the field. It is what it is.
As to this year's vote, imo they all got what they deserved. Biggio is a HOFer imo, but I can see 1 in 3 not thinking so or not wanting to put him in on the first ballot. He will get in for sure in the next 1 to 3 years imo. As to the roiders on the list tough...they also got what they deserve. Rose is not allowed in because he was a lying, unrepentant cheater who bet on baseball. Bonds and Clemens make Rose look like a choir boy in comparison and they have no business being voted in either imo. Their numbers were artificially enhanced in an illegal manner. Some want to argue others have cheated and gotten away with it, maybe so...But two wrongs do not make a right and if you do the crime and get caught either literally or in the court of public opinion in the case here, you pay the price.
Sticky Spice wrote:The players act like the HOF is theirs. The voters act like the HOF is theirs. Both have the power to put guys in.
Until they create a HOF that is by and for the fans, they can stick their HOF up their arse.
So much that is wrong with sports is that the fans (THE CUSTOMERS) get no respect. Thank god for fantasy.
The fans you speak of do a pretty horrendous job voting for All-stars. That would be the absolute worst letting them vote for the HOF.
Who goes to the Hall of Fame and spends money there?
I know we have this grand idea of what the HOF should be, but it's already not that and never will be. So give the tourists what they want. Hell, Abba is in the Rock n Roll HOF.
“Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.” --Henry David Thoreau
Sticky Spice wrote:The players act like the HOF is theirs. The voters act like the HOF is theirs. Both have the power to put guys in.
Until they create a HOF that is by and for the fans, they can stick their HOF up their arse.
So much that is wrong with sports is that the fans (THE CUSTOMERS) get no respect. Thank god for fantasy.
The fans you speak of do a pretty horrendous job voting for All-stars. That would be the absolute worst letting them vote for the HOF.
Who goes to the Hall of Fame and spends money there?
I know we have this grand idea of what the HOF should be, but it's already not that and never will be. So give the tourists what they want. Hell, Abba is in the Rock n Roll HOF.
LOL...Maybe so but that is sort of like saying it has a bad case of the flu already, so we may as well give it bubonic plague. The fans would be just awful, voting as a popularity contest with nothing even resembling a standard. And many of them would be casual fans who know absolutely nothing about baseball outside of the basic rules. At least with the baseball writer's you have people who's profession it is to know and follow baseball. They are not perfect by any means, but the fans would make the HOF a complete joke to the point of absurdity imo.
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