What cats best represent individual player performance? - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

What cats best represent individual player performance?

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

What cats best represent individual player performance?

Postby Sticky Spice » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:17 pm

If you were forming a league and were interested in taking some departures from classic 5x5 roto with categories that best represent player performance, what categories would you use? What categories are too redundant to use together, in your opinion?

I'm in that situation and later this week the league is going to discuss this issue. Certainly WAR is one of the best representative categories, but it's a bit too complicated for our league. We are more simple folk.

Hitting appears to be the easiest: HR, RBI, R, SB, OBP (or OPS - are they mutually excluive?)

But with pitching... it's tougher. We like QS, ERA, WHIP, and K's. Are K's and K/9 mutually exclusive? If so, what could be the 5th category? What is your opinion of saves and holds as it pertains to player performance?

If it's going to be a deep 15-team mixed league, how important is it that a category is included that values relievers in some way? I'm leaning toward it not being important at all.

Thanks for your input!
“Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.” --Henry David Thoreau
Sticky Spice
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Cafe Musketeer
Posts: 1158
(Past Year: 42)
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: At the bottom of the Ancient Cave

Re: What cats best represent individual player performance?

Postby bigh0rt » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:02 am

I don't think SV are any less player dependent than R or RBI, and you're using those. So really you're just looking at a 5x5 league that uses one of (or both) OBP/OPS, along with QS and possibly K/9. Not too divergent from the norm.
Image
bigh0rt
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 24802
(Past Year: 388)
Joined: 3 Jun 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Crowding The Plate

Re: What cats best represent individual player performance?

Postby Sticky Spice » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:13 am

I think the thing that bothers me with Sv (or W and H, for that matter) is that the awarding of them seems random and artificial whereas with R and RBI you are awarded them every time you cross the plate and (almost) every time runs cross the plate resulting from your at bat. Your point about R and RBI not just being player dependent is well-taken.

Should a league use OBP and OPS, or are they too redundant? Should a league use K and K/9 or are they also too redundant?

Thanks!
“Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.” --Henry David Thoreau
Sticky Spice
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Cafe Musketeer
Posts: 1158
(Past Year: 42)
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: At the bottom of the Ancient Cave

Re: What cats best represent individual player performance?

Postby jonboy418 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:22 am

I play in a league where we use 15 hitting categories and 15 pitching categories. It's a bit overkill, but it's a blast!!! I do know what you are going through. Our league has evolved over the years to try and reduce the number of redundant stats and non-skill stats.

In your specific case, I would not recommend using both K/9 and Ks for pitchers and OBP and OPS for hitters. Yes, those stats are redundant, especially for the hitters.

Ks will tend to favor SP since they pitch more innings, obviously they will rack up more Ks.
K/9 will tend to favor RP since one strike in one inning will equal a K/9 of 9.0. Compare that to a SP that throws 6 strikes in 8 innings. A good outing, but only a 6.75 K/9

For pitchers, my favorite stat that shows individual performance is K/BB. In most situations a pitcher vs. batter can end three ways: a strikeout, a walk, or contact. The first two; strikeout and a walk is completely representative of a pitcher vs. a batter. Once contact is made, then you have a fielding element that has no bearing on pitcher performance.

OBP is a great category and so much better than Avg. It will dramatically alter your draft.
OPS is another fun category, but is extremely redundant. I mean OBP+SLG... it's 50% If you go down the stat line, you'll notice, if you have a high OPS, you have a high OBP.

To use the example above to gauge a hitter: Three things come from the PA. A strikeout, a walk or contact. If you use the following 6 categories, you'll have all represented:
HR, R, RBI, SB - all tangible results of a walk or contact
OBP - represents a high walk rate plus good contact rate
K - a negative stat to give consequence to sub-par performance - call it the Carlos Pena (or Adam Dunn or Mark Reynolds) rule.
jonboy418
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor


Posts: 354
(Past Year: 35)
Joined: 3 Feb 2009
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: What cats best represent individual player performance?

Postby mkultra » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:31 am

jonboy418 wrote:For pitchers, my favorite stat that shows individual performance is K/BB.

OBP is a great category and so much better than Avg. It will dramatically alter your draft.


;-D
mkultra
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1336
(Past Year: 39)
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: What cats best represent individual player performance?

Postby Sticky Spice » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:35 am

jonboy418 wrote:In your specific case, I would not recommend using both K/9 and Ks for pitchers and OBP and OPS for hitters. Yes, those stats are redundant, especially for the hitters.

Ks will tend to favor SP since they pitch more innings, obviously they will rack up more Ks.
K/9 will tend to favor RP since one strike in one inning will equal a K/9 of 9.0. Compare that to a SP that throws 6 strikes in 8 innings. A good outing, but only a 6.75 K/9

For pitchers, my favorite stat that shows individual performance is K/BB. In most situations a pitcher vs. batter can end three ways: a strikeout, a walk, or contact. The first two; strikeout and a walk is completely representative of a pitcher vs. a batter. Once contact is made, then you have a fielding element that has no bearing on pitcher performance.

OBP is a great category and so much better than Avg. It will dramatically alter your draft.
OPS is another fun category, but is extremely redundant. I mean OBP+SLG... it's 50% If you go down the stat line, you'll notice, if you have a high OPS, you have a high OBP.

To use the example above to gauge a hitter: Three things come from the PA. A strikeout, a walk or contact. If you use the following 6 categories, you'll have all represented:
HR, R, RBI, SB - all tangible results of a walk or contact
OBP - represents a high walk rate plus good contact rate
K - a negative stat to give consequence to sub-par performance - call it the Carlos Pena (or Adam Dunn or Mark Reynolds) rule.


Great stuff - thank you for sharing your experiences!

So for offense you might recommend HR, RBI, R, SB, OBP, K

I wasn't clear on your opinion of pitching. Would you suggest using both K and K/BB, or are they redundant? What would you suggest for six pitching categories?
“Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.” --Henry David Thoreau
Sticky Spice
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Cafe Musketeer
Posts: 1158
(Past Year: 42)
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: At the bottom of the Ancient Cave

Re: What cats best represent individual player performance?

Postby jonboy418 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:00 am

Pitching is more difficult to peg. The reason, I say that is because if you add a 6th category, I would have to say Holds. It adds a huge element to the game, but doesn't really address your issue of representing individual player performance. Instead, it muddles it.

With the holds category, I would keep wins. Middle Relievers are great at capturing that vulture win (David Hernandez of Arizona had 9 wins). If you change that to Quality Starts, you've made that stat to only SP.

To create a balance of SP and RP:
ERA - both
WHIP - both
Wins - SP favored, but mid reliever can capture some
Saves - RP solely
Holds - RP solely

This is the tough one: K or K/9 or K/BB, but I would have to say Ks. Because the stats above are favoring the RP so heavily that you need a balance.

If you chose K/9 or K/BB, that truly favors the RP because their K/9 rate is usually high and their BB/9 is usually low, thus creating a high K/BB rate. What's to stop a player from trotting out one/two elite SP and having the rest RPs?
jonboy418
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor


Posts: 354
(Past Year: 35)
Joined: 3 Feb 2009
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: What cats best represent individual player performance?

Postby bigh0rt » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:02 pm

Sticky Spice wrote:
jonboy418 wrote:In your specific case, I would not recommend using both K/9 and Ks for pitchers and OBP and OPS for hitters. Yes, those stats are redundant, especially for the hitters.

Ks will tend to favor SP since they pitch more innings, obviously they will rack up more Ks.
K/9 will tend to favor RP since one strike in one inning will equal a K/9 of 9.0. Compare that to a SP that throws 6 strikes in 8 innings. A good outing, but only a 6.75 K/9

For pitchers, my favorite stat that shows individual performance is K/BB. In most situations a pitcher vs. batter can end three ways: a strikeout, a walk, or contact. The first two; strikeout and a walk is completely representative of a pitcher vs. a batter. Once contact is made, then you have a fielding element that has no bearing on pitcher performance.

OBP is a great category and so much better than Avg. It will dramatically alter your draft.
OPS is another fun category, but is extremely redundant. I mean OBP+SLG... it's 50% If you go down the stat line, you'll notice, if you have a high OPS, you have a high OBP.

To use the example above to gauge a hitter: Three things come from the PA. A strikeout, a walk or contact. If you use the following 6 categories, you'll have all represented:
HR, R, RBI, SB - all tangible results of a walk or contact
OBP - represents a high walk rate plus good contact rate
K - a negative stat to give consequence to sub-par performance - call it the Carlos Pena (or Adam Dunn or Mark Reynolds) rule.


Great stuff - thank you for sharing your experiences!

So for offense you might recommend HR, RBI, R, SB, OBP, K

I wasn't clear on your opinion of pitching. Would you suggest using both K and K/BB, or are they redundant? What would you suggest for six pitching categories?

I think dumping K in favor of K/9 and K/BB both could be interesting and fun. K/9 tends to favor relievers (some argue too strongly, even), while K/BB is just a nice ratio that takes the BB into account.

Something I've thought about doing for awhile is dumping almost all the ratios and using all the counting stats in H2H. Instead of AVG, use H, BB, and XBH. You could do the same thing for pitching with H, BB, HR Allowed, but you'd have to have a pretty high IP minimum weekly. I'm also not sure how this would work in Roto -- the pitching is where it gets dicey.

The bottom line is, talk to your league members and see what they want to use. They're the ones who have to live with it. I've been real gung ho about ideas over the last decade in the league I Commish, and been shot down by my league, while we've put things into place that I've been so so on, because the majority wanted it.
Image
bigh0rt
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 24802
(Past Year: 388)
Joined: 3 Jun 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Crowding The Plate

Re: What cats best represent individual player performance?

Postby ayebatter » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:08 pm

I prefer
bats
Total Bases -adding TB still gives the HR credence to the big bats but awards doubles/triples you could do this with OPS also but having a true counting stat is more fun than ratios on offense
Runs
RBI
SB
OBP

arms
W
K
S
ERA
WHIP

-the problem with K/BB is walks and Ks are being counted twice if you have K's and whip
-the problem with QS is that it just sucks, come on a 4.5 era in 6 innings is quality :-t
So-Cal 25 Club _762_
ayebatter
Moderator
Moderator

User avatar
ModeratorCafeholicResponse TeamMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 12112
(Past Year: 1428)
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: I CAN SEE FOR MILES

Re: What cats best represent individual player performance?

Postby Sticky Spice » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:50 pm

How ridiculous would it be to have five offensive categories, but six pitching categories? Many players can achieve at all five offensive categories, but pretty much zero pitchers can achieve at all six pitching categories if QS, Sv, and H are all part of the equation.
“Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.” --Henry David Thoreau
Sticky Spice
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Cafe Musketeer
Posts: 1158
(Past Year: 42)
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: At the bottom of the Ancient Cave

Next

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: unioreimi and 23 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Wednesday, Jul. 23
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Cleveland at Minnesota
(1:10 pm)
Kansas City at Chi White Sox
(2:10 pm)
Cincinnati at Milwaukee
(2:10 pm)
Washington at Colorado
(3:10 pm)
Detroit at Arizona
(3:40 pm)
NY Mets at Seattle
(3:40 pm)
LA Dodgers at Pittsburgh
(7:05 pm)
San Francisco at Philadelphia
(7:05 pm)
Texas at NY Yankees
(7:05 pm)
Boston at Toronto
(7:07 pm)
Miami at Atlanta
(7:10 pm)
Tampa Bay at St. Louis
(7:15 pm)
San Diego at Chi Cubs
(8:05 pm)
Baltimore at LA Angels
(10:05 pm)
Houston at Oakland
(10:05 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact