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Re: MVP Winners

Postby mweir145 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:16 am

thedude wrote:
mweir145 wrote:Cabrera actually gets a significant boost in his positional WAR for playing 3B instead of 1B so it all evens out in that respect. It's not like he's good defensively at either position, anyway.

It also should be reiterated that there is no objective argument that can be made based on the facts available that Cabrera was more valuable than Trout in 2012. It really shouldn't have been a debate.



It was hardly the worst selection ever. George Bell in 1987 was a absolutely horrible selection. Justin Morneau in 2006 was a bad selection (even more clear now then at the time it was made). Tejada in 2002 was a terrible choice.

Not the worst ever, but definitely another mistake in a long line of them for the BBWAA.
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Re: MVP Winners

Postby GiantsFan14 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:16 am

moochman wrote:As for Posey, would he have won if his teammate didn't get busted?


Why would it have mattered?
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Re: MVP Winners

Postby mweir145 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:17 am

GiantsFan14 wrote:
moochman wrote:As for Posey, would he have won if his teammate didn't get busted?


Why would it have mattered?

Melky4MVP
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Re: MVP Winners

Postby GiantsFan14 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:36 am

ayebatter wrote:Trout/Cabrera was a toss up, Braun is the guy that got hosed.


lol this is insane. if trout/cabrera was a toss-up (despite trout outproducing cabrera in fWAR 10 to 7.1) then how exactly did braun get hosed if Posey put up almost exactly the same fWAR (actually higher, 8 to 7.9)?

Posey: fWAR, fielding, position, OPS+, being Buster Posey
Braun: baserunning, OPS, wOBA

Braun is an average to below average left fielder. Posey is an above average catcher (though catcher defense is very hard to valuate). Posey also handles a very good pitching staff which is unaccounted for in any stats. I'd have no problem saying that Posey/Braun in a toss-up because they were actually very similar in value this year. Of course, when you take the story into account (which the voters do), Braun had absolutely no shot. He was caught taking roids and posey came back from a devasting injury to carry his team to the playoffs.

You're delusional if you actually think Braun got hosed. Especially if you're saying at the same time that Trout/MCab was a toss-up.
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Re: MVP Winners

Postby ayebatter » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:48 am

Come on Posey wasn't even a full time catcher, hell Molina was the best full time catcher. ;-)
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Re: MVP Winners

Postby GiantsFan14 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:04 am

ayebatter wrote:Come on Posey wasn't even a full time catcher, hell Molina was the best full time catcher. ;-)


Not sure how that's relevant. It's taken into account in WAR.
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Re: MVP Winners

Postby thedude » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:51 am

mweir145 wrote:
thedude wrote:
mweir145 wrote:Cabrera actually gets a significant boost in his positional WAR for playing 3B instead of 1B so it all evens out in that respect. It's not like he's good defensively at either position, anyway.

It also should be reiterated that there is no objective argument that can be made based on the facts available that Cabrera was more valuable than Trout in 2012. It really shouldn't have been a debate.



It was hardly the worst selection ever. George Bell in 1987 was a absolutely horrible selection. Justin Morneau in 2006 was a bad selection (even more clear now then at the time it was made). Tejada in 2002 was a terrible choice.

Not the worst ever, but definitely another mistake in a long line of them for the BBWAA.



Well looking at the AL: Its just as bad as 2011. 2010 they BBWAA got correct. 2009 was pretty good. 2008 was pretty good. 2007 was correct. 2006 was historically bad. 2005 was correct. 2004 was pretty good. 2003 was correct.

So out of ten years, you have three selections which were clearly wrong, and one which was historically bad. Not that bad of a track record. Its not like the AL MVP is wrong year in and year out.

If we go back further, the BWAA was pretty terrible: 2002 historically atrocious (un-defend-able). 2001 just as bad as 2012. 2000 was just as bad as 2012. 1999 was historically bad, a WAR of 12.1 lost to a WAR 6.9. 1998 was historically bad.

Clearly the AL voters over the last ten years were better than they were previously.
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Re: MVP Winners

Postby moochman » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:39 pm

mweir145 wrote:
GiantsFan14 wrote:
moochman wrote:As for Posey, would he have won if his teammate didn't get busted?


Why would it have mattered?

Melky4MVP


yes, because Melky would have won instead, no?
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Re: MVP Winners

Postby lastingsgriller » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:46 pm

moochman wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
GiantsFan14 wrote:
Why would it have mattered?

Melky4MVP


yes, because Melky would have won instead, no?


look, the giants won the world series because they had home field advantage. They had home field advantage because of Melky. Melky should be the MVP. duh.
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