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John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jays

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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby Skin Blues » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:35 pm

Frankly, I'm surprised that we missed the boat on Cliff Pennington. How many sub-290 wOBA middle infielders can one team burn through in 12 months? Yunel, Hech, Aviles, Vizquel, Maicer... that's pretty amazing. And Kelly Johnson had an impressive .299 wOBA. Thank god we got rid of him, he was setting the bar too high.
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby mweir145 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:19 pm

kab21 wrote:It's strange that the Jays then went out and signed a 32 yr old utility infielder to a 3 yr deal after dumping a utility infielder.

Strange? If you just traded a utility infielder away, isn't going out and getting another one to replace him exactly what you'd expect a team to do?
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby mweir145 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:23 pm

Skin Blues wrote:Frankly, I'm surprised that we missed the boat on Cliff Pennington. How many sub-290 wOBA middle infielders can one team burn through in 12 months? Yunel, Hech, Aviles, Vizquel, Maicer... that's pretty amazing. And Kelly Johnson had an impressive .299 wOBA. Thank god we got rid of him, he was setting the bar too high.

Escobar has a career .331 wOBA, Izturis has a career .318 wOBA. I'm going to guess they'll be hoping for numbers closer to those benchmarks this year from those two.
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby Mookie4ever » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:22 pm

mweir145 wrote:
Skin Blues wrote:Frankly, I'm surprised that we missed the boat on Cliff Pennington. How many sub-290 wOBA middle infielders can one team burn through in 12 months? Yunel, Hech, Aviles, Vizquel, Maicer... that's pretty amazing. And Kelly Johnson had an impressive .299 wOBA. Thank god we got rid of him, he was setting the bar too high.

Escobar has a career .331 wOBA, Izturis has a career .318 wOBA. I'm going to guess they'll be hoping for numbers closer to those benchmarks this year from those two.


Because players obviously improve in their 50s. How can we miss AA's brilliance?
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby kab21 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:24 pm

mweir145 wrote:
kab21 wrote:It's strange that the Jays then went out and signed a 32 yr old utility infielder to a 3 yr deal after dumping a utility infielder.

Strange? If you just traded a utility infielder away, isn't going out and getting another one to replace him exactly what you'd expect a team to do?


Nice spin! ;-D

Perhaps Izturis is better but why dump Aviles for a mediocre MR and then commit 3 yrs to 32 MI'er that is declining?
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby mweir145 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:41 pm

kab21 wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
kab21 wrote:It's strange that the Jays then went out and signed a 32 yr old utility infielder to a 3 yr deal after dumping a utility infielder.

Strange? If you just traded a utility infielder away, isn't going out and getting another one to replace him exactly what you'd expect a team to do?


Nice spin! ;-D

If spin is a fairly logical progression to make, then sure.


Perhaps Izturis is better but why dump Aviles for a mediocre MR and then commit 3 yrs to 32 MI'er that is declining?

So the Jays made a mistake by replacing Aviles with a better infielder and gaining a reliever in the process? Seems like a net gain by any definition to me.

The contract itself is probably a year longer than preferable, but Izturis is still likely to outproduce it anyway: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... cceptable/

Izturis is a fine and unexciting player, and though he’s entering his mid-30s and though he’s a little dude, the Blue Jays are paying him to be worth less than one win for each of the next three years. Even last year, FanGraphs gave him an approximate value of $3.1 million. He’s going to be earning $3 million a season for three seasons. This isn’t a contract that’s going to win Toronto a pennant, but it’s easier to see it going well than it is to see it going poorly. A three-year, $9-million contract can go only so poorly. Maicer Izturis isn’t much of a big splash for Alex Anthopoulos, but it’s a pretty safe splash, which isn’t bad as free agency goes.
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby mweir145 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:45 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
Skin Blues wrote:Frankly, I'm surprised that we missed the boat on Cliff Pennington. How many sub-290 wOBA middle infielders can one team burn through in 12 months? Yunel, Hech, Aviles, Vizquel, Maicer... that's pretty amazing. And Kelly Johnson had an impressive .299 wOBA. Thank god we got rid of him, he was setting the bar too high.

Escobar has a career .331 wOBA, Izturis has a career .318 wOBA. I'm going to guess they'll be hoping for numbers closer to those benchmarks this year from those two.


Because players obviously improve in their 50s. How can we miss AA's brilliance?

Are there any franchise middle infielders available in their mid-20s that I'm not aware of? Escobar and Izturis wouldn't even have to reach their career offensive numbers to be valuable for their respective positions and to be well worth what the Jays will pay them next year (in fact, Escobar's poor 2012 was already worth that cheap contract of his).
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby Skin Blues » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:47 pm

mweir145 wrote:
Skin Blues wrote:Frankly, I'm surprised that we missed the boat on Cliff Pennington. How many sub-290 wOBA middle infielders can one team burn through in 12 months? Yunel, Hech, Aviles, Vizquel, Maicer... that's pretty amazing. And Kelly Johnson had an impressive .299 wOBA. Thank god we got rid of him, he was setting the bar too high.

Escobar has a career .331 wOBA, Izturis has a career .318 wOBA. I'm going to guess they'll be hoping for numbers closer to those benchmarks this year from those two.

Yes they both had bad years but I guess it's just frustrating that they keep going after these scrubs when the middle infield was already so bad last season. Again I'm not saying Maicer is a bad pickup for how much they spent on him, but he should be a backup, not a starter. Getting good deals on mediocre players doesn't get you very far.
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby bayside » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:20 am

mweir145 wrote:Escobar and Izturis wouldn't even have to reach their career offensive numbers to be valuable for their respective positions and to be well worth what the Jays will pay them next year

So tell me, at what point does "value" finally give way to mundane abstractions such as "production" and "winning"?
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby bigh0rt » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:44 am

bayside wrote:
mweir145 wrote:Escobar and Izturis wouldn't even have to reach their career offensive numbers to be valuable for their respective positions and to be well worth what the Jays will pay them next year

So tell me, at what point does "value" finally give way to mundane abstractions such as "production" and "winning"?
When they base playoff contention on Pythagorean Record.
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