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John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jays

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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby MashinSpuds » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:07 pm

I simply look at it as "whatever". Bobby V and John Farrell finished 5th and 4th respectively with injuries and clubhouse issues (Sox obviously, Jays with Escobar and Vizquel's account of discipline). To me, until Farrell shows he's anything better than fourth place then it's the Jays who won out with a soft Aviles acquisition. Hey, at least the guy can replace Escobarf in the field.

I feel that the only way we'll see if this even works out in Sox favor is if Farrell gets the Sox to the playoffs after three years. If he doesn't, Jays fans' pride will easily recover from this perceived blow!
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby mweir145 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:14 pm

Skin Blues wrote:I can see the other side of this... hold out for a better return than Aviles, and there are a couple likely outcomes: a) they cave and we get a better return b) they decline and we fire Farrell once they pick another manager. Both of those result in us not having John Farrell manage this team, and that's a good thing. So putting aside the "reputation" factor, whether you believe it's a good or bad thing to screw over Farrell or to bend to his whim even though he agreed to a contract, we could have gambled at losing Aviles in return for a shot at a better player(s). That alone might be enough to justify holding out.

Except they already did just that last offseason and it accomplished nothing other than a poor season with Farrell running things. They asked for Buchholz, the Red Sox balked and move on to their next candidate (who, unfortunately for them, was a complete idiot). There's no reason to think the same thing wouldn't have happened again (although with a better replacement). Managers simply aren't worth very much, this deal should be yet another example of that. I'm still surprised the Sox even gave up as much as they did, they didn't get nearly as much back for their GM.

Also, I don't really get this idea that Farrell would HAVE to be let go if we didn't let him go to Boston. He also wanted to go to Boston after Francona was fired, so how is it different? You can't just say that he doesn't want to be here so we have to get rid of him. By that logic, we had to get rid of him last season. Whether it's 1 or 2 years remaining on his secretive contract doesn't matter much, because I'm sure he would have re-upped with Toronto after he missed out on the Boston job for a second straight year. Especially if he knows that the alternative is being given sent packing without another job to run off to.

But the Jays didn't want him anymore. He didn't show himself to be a good manager here and he and AA (by all reports) didn't have a good working relationship. Why waste another season with a guy that you don't think is the long-term answer for that spot?

John Farrell really isn't worth worrying about this much. He's just an underwhelming manager who wanted to work in Boston. The Jays have far bigger team issues (and far bigger PR problems if they don't get those issues fixed) than this.
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby Skin Blues » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:35 pm

Right, I'm not saying it's a huge deal that we lose Farrell, or that we should have brought him back. But the fact is they DID bring him back last year after he asked to leave, so why are they reacting differently last time? Hopefully AA learned from his mistake. He's had quite a few mistakes to learn from the past year or two though.

And come on, it's Mike Aviles. And they gave up Carpenter, who they just traded away a few pitching prospects in order to get along with Happ. They pretty much gave Farrell away for nothing. All I'm saying is try to get something useful. Maybe not Buchholz, but something. We already have 2 glove-first shortstops locked up for a few years and we go out and get another one. The repercussions of having Boston reject the deal are still rather favourable from a Jays perspective. They still can replace Farrell, they can prevent a division rival from getting their top choice for manager, they set a precedent that they aren't going to be pushed around. And who knows, maybe Cherington learned from last off-season too, that not going all-out to get your #1 choice for manager can have pretty ugly consequences, and he gives the Jays something useful and we get to keep Carpenter.

It may be inconsequential in the grand scheme of things but it's another small step in the wrong direction for AA, in my opinion. This is probably better suited on RealGM but hey there's a thread, so might as well discuss it.
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby Mookie4ever » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:01 pm

The main thing for me is that the Sox are divisional rivals. They clearly have more talent than the Jays and yet they were the one team in the AL east that finished behind us. We don't beat the Sox, they beat themselves because they are so dysfunctional. Why would we want to help them change that? Let them be dysfunctional. Don't just give them a manager that was there when they were good and whom the players like. If I could take Showalter, Madden and Girardi away from their teams I would do that as well. This is even worse because now the manager of a divisional rival that we will face 15 times next year will know more about our team than our own manager. Being polite to a divisional rival is just weak. Keep your Aviles, we don't need no stinkin Aviles.
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby mweir145 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:28 pm

Mike Aviles is worth a lot more than John Farrell. He does fill a need, as insignificant as it is. If I'm the GM of this team, I'm not going to sacrifice that (as well as another team taking my unwanted manager off my hands and my books) just to make things slightly more difficult on the Boston Red Sox and prevent a meaningless, short-term PR hit.

This is even worse because now the manager of a divisional rival that we will face 15 times next year will know more about our team than our own manager.

That was the theory when they first hired Farrell. That he'd be able to give secrets about Boston and help the Jays beat them. How did that work out?
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby bigh0rt » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:07 pm

mweir145 wrote:Mike Aviles is worth a lot more than John Farrell. He does fill a need, as insignificant as it is. If I'm the GM of this team, I'm not going to sacrifice that (as well as another team taking my unwanted manager off my hands and my books) just to make things slightly more difficult on the Boston Red Sox and prevent a meaningless, short-term PR hit.

This is even worse because now the manager of a divisional rival that we will face 15 times next year will know more about our team than our own manager.

That was the theory when they first hired Farrell. That he'd be able to give secrets about Boston and help the Jays beat them. How did that work out?

You finished 4 games ahead of them. B-)
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby Mookie4ever » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:53 pm

I'll tell you why we should never have let this happen. Spite.
We shouldn't be giving them a manager, we should be spitting in their eye, cursing them with our dying breaths. The only thing I want to send to the red sox is a box of hungry triffids.

The Yankees wouldn't give them their manager. The Packers wouldn't give their coach to the Bears. The Starks wouldn't give anything to the Lannisters. We should have laughed in their face but instead AA bends over for them.

11 years ago we hired a GM who's dream job was with the sox, then we hire a manager who's dream job is with the stupid sox. What the f is the matter with this team? Are we f'in Pawtucket or something?
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby mweir145 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:57 pm

A professional baseball organization shouldn't make baseball decisions based on spite.
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby Mookie4ever » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:47 pm

Red Sox to get Torey Lovullo as well

Boston just told AA to get his shinebox
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Re: John Farrell & DCarpenter to Red Sox, Mike Aviles to Jay

Postby mweir145 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:38 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:Red Sox to get Torey Lovullo as well

Boston just told AA to get his shinebox

The Jays will badly miss his ability to give fist bumps to players after singles.
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