AL MVP. Mike Trout show? - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

AL MVP. Mike Trout show?

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: AL MVP. Mike Trout show?

Postby J35J » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:01 pm

jfg wrote:
SpecialFNK wrote:maybe I should have been more clear with what I meant. I meant the categories that include the triple crown. leading in HR and RBI are not as impressive as they used to be. Jose Bautista lead the league in HR in each of the last 2 seasons (along with being close in RBI), but he didn't win the MVP. last year he lost the award to a pitcher.
HR are nice, and RBI depend on other teammates to get on base to drive in. Cabrera wouldn't have as many RBI if the players in front of him didn't get on base as often.



Bautista didn't have the average to go with it. There's a reason why the TC is hard to attain, you need to be a complete hitter. The Triple Crown is not a relic of the game, it's a very difficult achievement and only a great hitter could contend for it. A little luck comes into play as well, since Cabrera had normal Cabrera stats and didn't have a 50+ home run power hitter to contend with. Anyway, it just happens that a great hitter got it this year, but another great hitter just had a better season. I just don't understand why we're trying to diminish the worth of what Cabrera did. The TC is as relevant as it was in '67 and I don't think there's an argument that Cabrera was easily the 2nd best player in the league which at least puts him in a debate of whether he deserves MVP. He'll probably win it too, seeing what sportswriters are saying over the past couple days. That's the wrong choice, but it would be a shame to lessen what he achieved because the voters got it wrong.


Agreed.
J35J
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 10467
(Past Year: 398)
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: AL MVP. Mike Trout show?

Postby AquaMan2342 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:05 pm

J35J wrote:
jfg wrote:
SpecialFNK wrote:maybe I should have been more clear with what I meant. I meant the categories that include the triple crown. leading in HR and RBI are not as impressive as they used to be. Jose Bautista lead the league in HR in each of the last 2 seasons (along with being close in RBI), but he didn't win the MVP. last year he lost the award to a pitcher.
HR are nice, and RBI depend on other teammates to get on base to drive in. Cabrera wouldn't have as many RBI if the players in front of him didn't get on base as often.



Bautista didn't have the average to go with it. There's a reason why the TC is hard to attain, you need to be a complete hitter. The Triple Crown is not a relic of the game, it's a very difficult achievement and only a great hitter could contend for it. A little luck comes into play as well, since Cabrera had normal Cabrera stats and didn't have a 50+ home run power hitter to contend with. Anyway, it just happens that a great hitter got it this year, but another great hitter just had a better season. I just don't understand why we're trying to diminish the worth of what Cabrera did. The TC is as relevant as it was in '67 and I don't think there's an argument that Cabrera was easily the 2nd best player in the league which at least puts him in a debate of whether he deserves MVP. He'll probably win it too, seeing what sportswriters are saying over the past couple days. That's the wrong choice, but it would be a shame to lessen what he achieved because the voters got it wrong.


Agreed.


Would either of you deny that Cabrera's last two seasons were actually better offensively and his TC is as much a byproduct of Austin Jackson's excellent year as it is of anything else?

EDIT: I'm not trying to diminish what he did at all. Again, huge Tigers/Cabrera fan; always have been, always will be. The difference in his RBI output, however, is almost 100% due to Jackson.
Last edited by AquaMan2342 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AquaMan2342
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
EditorCafeholicCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeWeb Supporter
Posts: 7852
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Searchin for my mainline....I couldn't hit it sideways

Re: AL MVP. Mike Trout show?

Postby WaCougMBS » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:07 pm

J35J wrote:
jfg wrote:
SpecialFNK wrote:maybe I should have been more clear with what I meant. I meant the categories that include the triple crown. leading in HR and RBI are not as impressive as they used to be. Jose Bautista lead the league in HR in each of the last 2 seasons (along with being close in RBI), but he didn't win the MVP. last year he lost the award to a pitcher.
HR are nice, and RBI depend on other teammates to get on base to drive in. Cabrera wouldn't have as many RBI if the players in front of him didn't get on base as often.



Bautista didn't have the average to go with it. There's a reason why the TC is hard to attain, you need to be a complete hitter. The Triple Crown is not a relic of the game, it's a very difficult achievement and only a great hitter could contend for it. A little luck comes into play as well, since Cabrera had normal Cabrera stats and didn't have a 50+ home run power hitter to contend with. Anyway, it just happens that a great hitter got it this year, but another great hitter just had a better season. I just don't understand why we're trying to diminish the worth of what Cabrera did. The TC is as relevant as it was in '67 and I don't think there's an argument that Cabrera was easily the 2nd best player in the league which at least puts him in a debate of whether he deserves MVP. He'll probably win it too, seeing what sportswriters are saying over the past couple days. That's the wrong choice, but it would be a shame to lessen what he achieved because the voters got it wrong.


Agreed.


X3
Image
2012 H2HWS West A champion
WaCougMBS
Radio Pimp
Radio Pimp

User avatar
Radio PimpEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeWeb SupporterCafecasterFootball ModPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 7201
(Past Year: 12)
Joined: 29 May 2005
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Guardedly optimistic

Re: AL MVP. Mike Trout show?

Postby Skin Blues » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:10 pm

RyeWhiskey wrote:Miguel Cabrera: 12th player since 1900 to win the triple crown. Epic.

Trout fans: Major deflated mancrush boner. No playoffs. Most likely no MVP award.

Other baseball superstars, lacking major deflated mancrush boner, actually see what just happened:

"Come on, it's the Triple Crown," said Hamilton, who finished second to Cabrera in homers and RBIs. "It hasn't been done in how many years? If he doesn't win Most Valuable Player, I'm going to have to quit baseball. Mike Trout -- Rookie of the Year. Cabrera -- Most Valuable Player. Just how infrequently it happens tells you the value of it. I'm excited about it. It's good for the game, it's good for Miguel, it's good for the Tigers, it's good for baseball, period."

"He's the MVP, dude, and I know I'm biased, because he's my favorite player," Kemp said. "It's just amazing what he can do. Believe it or not, I think he's underrated. I mean, people see the numbers, but the players know how hard it is to do what he can do. One of the best hitters ever."

"That's what happens when you have somebody like Prince Fielder backing you up," McCutchen said of Cabrera's protection in the order. "But on top of that, he's been doing it his entire career, people just haven't noticed. [He's] been one of the most consistent hitters in his career. His power numbers, RBIs, average are always there. He's just the type of player that can spark a lineup, and he's done it every single year and is finally starting to get some credit for it."

"He's the best in the world right now," Konerko said. "There's no question about that."

"When he's at the plate, he can do anything," Trout said. "I mean, he's the best hitter in the game, I think. His approach, the way he battles with two strikes. You leave one pitch over the plate, he's going to hit it. He had an unbelievable year."


Congratulations to Miguel Cabrera on becoming the 17th player to win the triple crown in baseball history, the 12th since RBI was officially counted as a stat, and the first Latin-born player to win. ;-D

Next step: MVP.

I must have missed the quotes about how good he is at defense, running the bases, and beating out GIDPs !+)

And I can't think of a single thing that I would take advice on from Josh Hamilton. He's physically gifted but not so much between the ears.
Skin Blues
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 3080
(Past Year: 150)
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: AL MVP. Mike Trout show?

Postby J35J » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:19 pm

AquaMan2342 wrote:
J35J wrote:
jfg wrote:

Bautista didn't have the average to go with it. There's a reason why the TC is hard to attain, you need to be a complete hitter. The Triple Crown is not a relic of the game, it's a very difficult achievement and only a great hitter could contend for it. A little luck comes into play as well, since Cabrera had normal Cabrera stats and didn't have a 50+ home run power hitter to contend with. Anyway, it just happens that a great hitter got it this year, but another great hitter just had a better season. I just don't understand why we're trying to diminish the worth of what Cabrera did. The TC is as relevant as it was in '67 and I don't think there's an argument that Cabrera was easily the 2nd best player in the league which at least puts him in a debate of whether he deserves MVP. He'll probably win it too, seeing what sportswriters are saying over the past couple days. That's the wrong choice, but it would be a shame to lessen what he achieved because the voters got it wrong.


Agreed.


Would either of you deny that Cabrera's last two seasons were actually better offensively and his TC is as much a byproduct of Austin Jackson's excellent year as it is of anything else?


Cabrera was a better hitter the previous two seasons but the results on the field were a smidge better this year. Results are what win awards.

The TC season was a byproduct of a lot of things.


I'd still vote Trout but I'm just sayin...
J35J
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 10467
(Past Year: 398)
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: AL MVP. Mike Trout show?

Postby RyeWhiskey » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:20 pm

Skin Blues wrote:
RyeWhiskey wrote:Miguel Cabrera: 12th player since 1900 to win the triple crown. Epic.

Trout fans: Major deflated mancrush boner. No playoffs. Most likely no MVP award.

Other baseball superstars, lacking major deflated mancrush boner, actually see what just happened:

"Come on, it's the Triple Crown," said Hamilton, who finished second to Cabrera in homers and RBIs. "It hasn't been done in how many years? If he doesn't win Most Valuable Player, I'm going to have to quit baseball. Mike Trout -- Rookie of the Year. Cabrera -- Most Valuable Player. Just how infrequently it happens tells you the value of it. I'm excited about it. It's good for the game, it's good for Miguel, it's good for the Tigers, it's good for baseball, period."

"He's the MVP, dude, and I know I'm biased, because he's my favorite player," Kemp said. "It's just amazing what he can do. Believe it or not, I think he's underrated. I mean, people see the numbers, but the players know how hard it is to do what he can do. One of the best hitters ever."

"That's what happens when you have somebody like Prince Fielder backing you up," McCutchen said of Cabrera's protection in the order. "But on top of that, he's been doing it his entire career, people just haven't noticed. [He's] been one of the most consistent hitters in his career. His power numbers, RBIs, average are always there. He's just the type of player that can spark a lineup, and he's done it every single year and is finally starting to get some credit for it."

"He's the best in the world right now," Konerko said. "There's no question about that."

"When he's at the plate, he can do anything," Trout said. "I mean, he's the best hitter in the game, I think. His approach, the way he battles with two strikes. You leave one pitch over the plate, he's going to hit it. He had an unbelievable year."


Congratulations to Miguel Cabrera on becoming the 17th player to win the triple crown in baseball history, the 12th since RBI was officially counted as a stat, and the first Latin-born player to win. ;-D

Next step: MVP.

I must have missed the quotes about how good he is at defense, running the bases, and beating out GIDPs !+)

And I can't think of a single thing that I would take advice on from Josh Hamilton. He's physically gifted but not so much between the ears.


I know right? It's only like these guys... well... play the actual game we're talking about. So what would they really know about it?
Image
RyeWhiskey
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1552
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: AL MVP. Mike Trout show?

Postby Urban Cohorts » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:47 pm

RyeWhiskey wrote:
Skin Blues wrote:I must have missed the quotes about how good he is at defense, running the bases, and beating out GIDPs !+)

And I can't think of a single thing that I would take advice on from Josh Hamilton. He's physically gifted but not so much between the ears.


I know right? It's only like these guys... well... play the actual game we're talking about. So what would they really know about it?


Do you honestly expect any of those players (or any veteran/team leader) to come out and say that a rookie should win the award over a perennial all star? It doesn't work that way... That is the safe statement to make. Do you think these players really want to deal with a potential PR nightmare of endorsing the non-TC winner for MVP?

Some baseball players are really bright and others not so much. In those quotes you posted, I don't see any specific reasoning behind why they think Miggy should win the MVP. Other than TC = MVP, of course.

McCutchen sums it up best IMO-

"That's what happens when you have somebody like Prince Fielder backing you up," McCutchen said of Cabrera's protection in the order. "But on top of that, he's been doing it his entire career, people just haven't noticed. [He's] been one of the most consistent hitters in his career. His power numbers, RBIs, average are always there. He's just the type of player that can spark a lineup, and he's done it every single year and is finally starting to get some credit for it."


Miggy's 2012 numbers are either on par with 2010/2011 or slightly worse. He just happened to fall into the right set of circumstances where he was able to win the TC.

I know Miggy is going to win the MVP, but in MVP, the P stands for player, not hitter. And with that in mind, I don't see how anyone can make a modern day argument that favors Miggy over Trout.
Image
Urban Cohorts
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Cafe WriterMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 1717
Joined: 2 Jan 2009
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Rome in all of its glory...

Re: AL MVP. Mike Trout show?

Postby jackie hayes » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:09 pm

Miguel Cabrera -- Because Defense Doesn't Matter!
jackie hayes
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

Cafeholic
Posts: 2069
(Past Year: 94)
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: AL MVP. Mike Trout show?

Postby jfg » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:44 pm

Even though I still agree that Trout is the right choice, I want to weigh in the defense debate. How many runs did Cabrera cost the Tigers with below average defense and how many runs did Trout save? We all agreed in an earlier thread this season that WAR is an inexact science because it doesn't seem to really have a good handle on defense (http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=450308). We can definitely see that Trout is a great defensive player and that Cabrera is below average. But what's the quantifiable difference?
Image
jfg
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicGolden Eagle EyeMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly WinnerTrivia Time Trial Monthly Winner
Posts: 6078
(Past Year: 86)
Joined: 4 Nov 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: AL MVP. Mike Trout show?

Postby jfg » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:49 pm

Also, does anybody else find it funny that SABR heads are all about Trout and his 49 stolen bases? :-D Things done changed.
Image
jfg
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicGolden Eagle EyeMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly WinnerTrivia Time Trial Monthly Winner
Posts: 6078
(Past Year: 86)
Joined: 4 Nov 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Thursday, Aug. 21
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Houston at NY Yankees
(1:05 pm)
Cleveland at Minnesota
(1:10 pm)
Detroit at Tampa Bay
(1:10 pm)
indoors
Arizona at Washington
(4:05 pm)
LA Angels at Boston
(7:10 pm)
Atlanta at Cincinnati
(7:10 pm)
San Francisco at Chi Cubs
(8:05 pm)
San Diego at LA Dodgers
(10:10 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact