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MLB is bush league

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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby Maris09 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:37 pm

Syfo-Dyas wrote:But you dont do it when everyone in the whole world can tell that its retribution.

Well I don't know what to tell you then because that's what happened, plain and simple.

Either way, everyone on the field should be held accoutable.


Syfo-Dyas wrote:So in this case, it was such a bad call that retribution is not the most probable explanation IMO.
Its like the case when Helton was couple of feet off 1st base, yet the batter-runner was called out. Too obvious to be intentional. And nobody considered that as a retribution.

Huh? You just got finished saying these calls weren't that obvious.
Also everyone I know considered it retribution. You're the first person I've experienced who did not consider it that.


I'm not gonna bother going back and forth on this one because there's no question about what it was. Was Lawrie out of line? Absolutely. Was the umpire out of line? 100%.
Both should have been disciplined.
Last edited by Maris09 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby Skin Blues » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:42 pm

Syfo-Dyas wrote:Did you heard what those players said, that you can decide what they deserved?
I hardly think so.
Do you know anybody who can take shit day in day out, and do not respond?
I hardly think so.
It's the players who have to learn how to communicate first.

Umpiring isn't an easy job, but it's a pretty straightforward one. They're paid more than enough to do it properly, and if they don't/can't, they should be replaced. If they didn't get into it with players and egg them on/escalate the situation so often, then you'd see a lot less arguing and visible complaining.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby Mookie4ever » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:34 pm

Skin Blues wrote:
Syfo-Dyas wrote:Did you heard what those players said, that you can decide what they deserved?
I hardly think so.
Do you know anybody who can take shit day in day out, and do not respond?
I hardly think so.
It's the players who have to learn how to communicate first.

Umpiring isn't an easy job, but it's a pretty straightforward one. They're paid more than enough to do it properly, and if they don't/can't, they should be replaced. If they didn't get into it with players and egg them on/escalate the situation so often, then you'd see a lot less arguing and visible complaining.


Can't. Strong union.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby Skin Blues » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:20 am

I know. Even when the terrible ones quit, you still have to take them back :-[
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby AHF » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:37 am

Syfo-Dyas wrote:
MaudDib wrote:MLB is not the only one that has this kind of problem. The NBA is just as bad at calling technicals or ejecting guys on things that should maybe have gotten a warning.

Did you heard what those players said, that you can decide what they deserved?
I hardly think so.
Do you know anybody who can take shit day in day out, and do not respond?
I hardly think so.
It's the players who have to learn how to communicate first.


That Tim Duncan is a wild man. He should have simply been put down by Crawford so his abusive treatment of officials could end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOygTd1NWCM

But at least Crawford knows how to keep Camby in check!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-hdrSTx ... re=related

The NBA may be the worst sport as far as deliberately inconsistent application of the rules. Do something as a superstar and you get one set of rules. Do something as a scrub and you get another set of rules. I love the NBA but there is a lot of cause to second guess the officials over more than "bang/bang" sorts of calls that are difficult for anyone to get right.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby MaudDib » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:30 am

Syfo-Dyas wrote:
Maris09 wrote:
Syfo-Dyas wrote:You just don't get it.
The ump called it as he saw it. He screwed up. Period. It happens, and had nothing to do with Lawrie taking off on a previous pitch.
And it's an idiotic assumption the he called that pitch a strike because he was showing up.

No, it's was quite obvious to anyone watching the game that he called the 3-1 pitch a strike (late) because Lawrie had taken the liberty to call it a ball himself and head toward first base. I'm sure Lawrie will learn from this not to do that in the future, but it was obvious that's what occurred.

It was even more obvious that the 3-2 pitch was called a strike because of how Lawrie acted after the 3-1 pitch (ball) was called a strike.

It's not even really debatable that in this specific situation, the umpire was upset and that being upset influenced his calls.


It is very much debatable since nobody can prove anything.
I watched the video and the ump didnt seem upset, and actually he sais something to the pitcher, when Lawrie walks by, after the 3-1 pitch.

Actually that 3-1 pitch wasnt that bad at all, and Ive seen that called a strike many times, since the umpire almost never has a clear view of the outside of the zone.
Ive seen worse.

And Ive seen many batters takin off when they thought it was ball 4, and pitchers and catchers starting towards the dugout when they thought it was strike 3, without thinking getting effd on the next pitch.

I agree on that if a player makes an umpire upset, calls not gonna go his way. Every borderline pitch will be a strike, (or ball if its the catcher or the pitcher), and on every close play on the bases he will be out.
But you dont do it when everyone in the whole world can tell that its retribution.
So in this case, it was such a bad call that retribution is not the most probable explanation IMO.
Its like the case when Helton was couple of feet off 1st base, yet the batter-runner was called out. Too obvious to be retribution. And nobody considered that as a retribution.

One of the first things taught to umpires that don't call too high and too low pitches strikes cause everyone can see your mistake!
Don't call inside balls strike cause the batter has a very clear view of that, and he'll be very mad at you.
But you can expand the zone on the outside. The batters have a worse view of the outside pitch than the ump, so they can't tell anything for sure on a close pitch.
In this case the 3-2 pitch was clearly so high and outside, that the whole stadium could see it.

So theres no indication that the 3-2 pitch was a FU call other than Lawrie took off on the previous pitch?
And thats why its obvious?


I am not really going to get into it because either we agree or we don't. So I will finish off by saying that I agree that people make mistakes. No problem there. I know I make plenty of them and I have no expectation that anyone else should be any different. But just like I am held accountable for the mistakes I make at work, I expect the officials to be held accountable for what they do. While umps are made out to be stupid or always making mistakes, I am one that doesn't feel this way. There are a lot of great officials who I will never remember a thing about them and that is exactly what an official should be. They should blend into the background and make the correct calls.

I also really hate when players go off on officials as well and think they need to be disciplined or something. Going to another sport, tennis, one of the Williams sisters a few years ago got called for a line foul (or something like that) and she went off on the line judge. Completely wrong for any person to ever verbally attack another human being the way she did. Ended up costing her the game because of penalties from the rant. But the official called it correct but the media went off on the official saying that "you don't make that call in that situation". And that kind of stuff upsets me. Rules are rules and you call the game the way it was setup up to be played and every player is given the same treatment as the next player. If a ball is outside for a rookie who runs to first base, give him the walk just like you would if it was Pujols who took off like that.

Continuing with the Lawrie situation, here is a link that shows where the pitches were (http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/5/16/30233 ... -blue-jays). The 3-1 pitch was the bad call and the one most people believe was called a strike because Lawrie started for first before the call was made. The 3-2 pitch was borderline and could go either way but it didn't help Lawrie after what happened on the 3-1 pitch.

When I talk about accountability, I am not talking about an immediate fix. Yes we might get a few worse officials as the ones that are making most of the errors are let go or sent down or whatever but by letting everyone know what expectations are expected, you will eventually get better officials. Again just like at work, it can really hurt if you lose a guy even if he was a slacker because now everyone has to take on extra work and the work that is done probably isn't your best. Then that spot is filled with a new guy with little to no experience and the work is still hurting. But eventually that guy learns what is expected of him and starts pulling his own weight and now everything is better because the slacker is gone and everyone is working at their best. Of course this is a perfect world scenario but one that is used in work places everywhere.

Again, I am fine with the human element which includes mistakes. It is the constant mistakes, blown calls or short fuses from officials that needs to be addressed. Instead all leagues don't talk about officials and won't let players or coaches talk about officials. They sweep it under the rug and pretend their isn't a problem and that technology will only make the game worse.
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."- Douglas Adams

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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby Syfo-Dyas » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:25 pm

AHF wrote:The NBA may be the worst sport as far as deliberately inconsistent application of the rules. Do something as a superstar and you get one set of rules. Do something as a scrub and you get another set of rules.

I agree, I hate that too. That is really bush league.
That has to change.

The Tim Duncan ejection is ridiculous. Crawford was an idiot. Period.
It seems like that Camby makes too much contact with Grant Hill, so that call seems ok.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby Syfo-Dyas » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:10 pm

MaudDib wrote:stuff

The problem is that players are yelling at umpires right away.
And no one realizes that it never works.
Instead it should the manager coming out and ask the umpire for another opinion.
If the umpire refuses to have the other opinion, than yelling and cursing and post game umpire briefing should happen.
The umpire's job is to get things right. Sometimes it's impossible, but when it is possible, than they should do everything to get it right.
And all those umpires who can not get on with the times should be replaced.
But if the first step is yelling and cursing, than nothing will change.

I dont know what you do for living, but mistake free umpiring is impossible.
There was an ESPN study after the Gallaraga incident, and if I remember correctly, Major League umpires were wrong on more than 20% on close plays! And only 65% were confirmed as correct!
Balls and strikes were not included.
Clearly the expectations are too high.

Williams sister?
How about my favorite, John McEnroe :-D

I agree what you said about young players ans superstars. Rules are rules.

Looking at this Im not sure it's correct.
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/11205 ... iezone.png
Pitch 6 here is a strike.
But watch this video
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=21468797
Here you can see that the 3-1 pitch did not miss by much. Ive seen lot worse.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore;_y ... =270415116
The home plate ump was outrageously bad.
Such pitches were called strikes all game long that the batters had no chance to reach the ball with a 10 foot pole.
Yet no one wanted to beat up the guy.
And if you watch the Lawrie video it is clear that the 3-2 pitch is way too high. Nothing like that pitch chart.
And you can see in the video that the ump did not seem upset that Lawrie took off. He was talking to the pitcher.
Last edited by Syfo-Dyas on Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby AHF » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:22 pm

Syfo-Dyas wrote:
AHF wrote:The NBA may be the worst sport as far as deliberately inconsistent application of the rules. Do something as a superstar and you get one set of rules. Do something as a scrub and you get another set of rules.

I agree, I hate that too. That is really bush league.
That has to change.

The Tim Duncan ejection is ridiculous. Crawford was an idiot. Period.
It seems like that Camby makes too much contact with Grant Hill, so that call seems ok.


You are OK with sending Steve Nash to the line to take free throws after Marcus Camby (supposedly) makes too much contact with Grant Hill? :-o

Wow. Your standards for refs are much lower than mine. I like it when the refs send the guy fouled to the line instead of someone who wasn't even close to the area where the foul was committed. In my book, that tends to make the foul on Steve Nash look pretty darn suspect.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby AHF » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:28 pm

As a Braves fan, the Kent Hrbek call and the Eric Gregg strike zone represent my personal nadir for MLB umpires.

http://www.complex.com/sports/2009/10/b ... ff-history

The Hrbek call is inexcusable but rankles me less because I can at least assume the umps went blind for 3 seconds and missed Hrbek moving Gant off the bag. The Gregg strike zone was the worst.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR3eK5gCChM
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