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MLB is bush league

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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby Syfo-Dyas » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:25 pm

Maris09 wrote:
grizfan wrote:The problem with more replay is that it slows the game down even more for the casual fan, who doesn't really follow and understand the game, and needs constant action. Over 162 games some will go for you and some will go against you. I think more replay during the playoffs may not be a bad idea though.

That's a generic train of thought that simply isn't true. All of us at home know whether a call is right or wrong in a matter of seconds, there's no reason why that cannot translate into a replay system.

Not to mention, how long does it take for a manager to come out and scream and yell when an obvious blown call is made? A lot longer than it would take for a replay.

Exactly.
And this has been discussed extensively. We all know what to do, now we have to wait til something happens.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby Syfo-Dyas » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:40 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:I completely agree with Hoot. The two issues are the abundance of terrible calls this year and the lack of accountability with the umps.

And how many times the players are wrong?

Mookie4ever wrote:... they act like prima donnas.

How would you react if douchebags would yell at you all week, and most of the time they are wrong?


Mookie4ever wrote:The bad calls are getting to be too much.

I don't think it's more than it was 10, 20 or 100 years ago.
But we have pitchtrax or whatever thay call it so everybody can see every mistake.

Mookie4ever wrote:Calling lines is easy, they just need umps on the line. Take the guy out from behind the plate, have a computer call balls and strikes and put umps on the lines. Easy.

And program the computer to make calls on slides and tags or tag attempts at home plate?
And make judgment calls on swings or check swings?
And it should see if the ball grazed the batter's jersey, call deadball immediately, and send the batter to firstbase?

A better solution is that the computer signals to the home plate ump if it's a strike.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby Maris09 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:09 pm

Syfo-Dyas wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:I completely agree with Hoot. The two issues are the abundance of terrible calls this year and the lack of accountability with the umps.

And how many times the players are wrong?

Absolutely agree. And even when the umpires are wrong it's not always their fault, the human eye just isn't able to see things that happen at certain speeds (though they could stand to be a little less stubborn in asking for help).

The bottom line is everyone just wants the correct calls to be made; from the players, to the umps, to the fans. So why not do something to make it happen. It's one of the more lame things in all of sports.

And the notion that they want to keep baseball "old school" is a joke. Is Interleague play old school? Is the Wild Card old school? How about the new second Wild Card? Basically if it can make MLB more money, it's totally cool to break the from the old school ways. Otherwise it's an abomination.
So in that sense, I think you can say MLB is being bush league.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby jfg » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:06 am

Maris09 wrote:
grizfan wrote:The problem with more replay is that it slows the game down even more for the casual fan, who doesn't really follow and understand the game, and needs constant action. Over 162 games some will go for you and some will go against you. I think more replay during the playoffs may not be a bad idea though.

That's a generic train of thought that simply isn't true. All of us at home know whether a call is right or wrong in a matter of seconds, there's no reason why that cannot translate into a replay system.

Not to mention, how long does it take for a manager to come out and scream and yell when an obvious blown call is made? A lot longer than it would take for a replay.


I agree with this, and I don't get why leagues with replay don't just have a guy on the sidelines who can look at the replay and within seconds have the right call. It's so stupid that a referee in charge of making calls on the playing field/court needs to be the one to go look at the replay. It gives replay a bad name, it does slow down the game, it looks completely ridiculous and it just doesn't have to be that way. Plus, anything to get rid of manager arguments will get my seal of approval.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby Maris09 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:57 am

jfg wrote:I agree with this, and I don't get why leagues with replay don't just have a guy on the sidelines who can look at the replay and within seconds have the right call. It's so stupid that a referee in charge of making calls on the playing field/court needs to be the one to go look at the replay. It gives replay a bad name, it does slow down the game, it looks completely ridiculous and it just doesn't have to be that way. Plus, anything to get rid of manager arguments will get my seal of approval.

Exactly. They intentionally make it slow, and then go....."it's too slow." X-I
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby J35J » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:46 am

jfg wrote:
Maris09 wrote:That's a generic train of thought that simply isn't true. All of us at home know whether a call is right or wrong in a matter of seconds, there's no reason why that cannot translate into a replay system.

Not to mention, how long does it take for a manager to come out and scream and yell when an obvious blown call is made? A lot longer than it would take for a replay.


I agree with this, and I don't get why leagues with replay don't just have a guy on the sidelines who can look at the replay and within seconds have the right call. It's so stupid that a referee in charge of making calls on the playing field/court needs to be the one to go look at the replay. It gives replay a bad name, it does slow down the game, it looks completely ridiculous and it just doesn't have to be that way. Plus, anything to get rid of manager arguments will get my seal of approval.


+1
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby MaudDib » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:58 pm

Saltydog wrote:Go umpire a high school baseball game, and see how well you do.

In the long term, calls will even out. I'm sure there's going to be a few calls that go against the Mets at some point.

There's only significance brought to the forefront because of it being a no-hitter. Same with Galarraga's "perfect game". If it was a 5-2 game no one would care or notice.


There is a huge difference between people who are trained to do the job and someone walking off the street to do the job. I don't think anyone here is saying that it isn't a tough job but that doesn't excuse some of the things that go on. But people do notice and it builds up frustration. It might not get as much attention but anytime I watch a game and see a horrible call, it irritates me to no end.

I am more ok with a very close ball hitting the line and being called a foul then I am ok with umps doing what they did in the Lawrie situation. He is not the first one to have an ump try to show up a player. So what if Lawrie took off for first because he thought it was a ball, call it the way it is.

MLB is not the only one that has this kind of problem. The NBA is just as bad at calling technicals or ejecting guys on things that should maybe have gotten a warning.

Bottom line is that umps need to be held accountable. If you set expectations and then follow up most of these problems will go away. The problem is that if there is any sort of punishment, no one knows about it and it has little effect. I am not in favor of computers doing the work because computers can have just as many, if not more, problems than a human. What happens if the computer goes down or is off alignment or gets hacked into or any number of possible scenarios. Can you imagine the uproar if something like that happened. Stick with the humans, incorporate an ump in the booth for certain plays (close plays at the base, catches, foul balls, home runs...etc) and setup a system where umps are held accountable upto and including suspension and termination.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby Syfo-Dyas » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:49 pm

MaudDib wrote:
Saltydog wrote:Go umpire a high school baseball game, and see how well you do.

In the long term, calls will even out. I'm sure there's going to be a few calls that go against the Mets at some point.

There's only significance brought to the forefront because of it being a no-hitter. Same with Galarraga's "perfect game". If it was a 5-2 game no one would care or notice.


There is a huge difference between people who are trained to do the job and someone walking off the street to do the job. I don't think anyone here is saying that it isn't a tough job but that doesn't excuse some of the things that go on. But people do notice and it builds up frustration. It might not get as much attention but anytime I watch a game and see a horrible call, it irritates me to no end.


Yeah trained, but nobody is perfect. Everybody makes mistakes. Part of life.
And believe me, a bad call irritates me to. I was yelling for minutes when that MF hit Marian Hossa and did not get at least a 2 minute penalty.
And when a flagrant foul was called on World Peace, instead of a jump ball. And that was clearly a jump ball. But I know that the referee thought it was a flagrant foul. It's not their fault that the system is wrong.

MaudDib wrote:I am more ok with a very close ball hitting the line and being called a foul then I am ok with umps doing what they did in the Lawrie situation. He is not the first one to have an ump try to show up a player. So what if Lawrie took off for first because he thought it was a ball, call it the way it is.

You just don't get it.
The ump called it as he saw it. He screwed up. Period. It happens, and had nothing to do with Lawrie taking off on a previous pitch.
And it's an idiotic assumption the he called that pitch a strike because he was showing up.

MaudDib wrote:MLB is not the only one that has this kind of problem. The NBA is just as bad at calling technicals or ejecting guys on things that should maybe have gotten a warning.

Did you heard what those players said, that you can decide what they deserved?
I hardly think so.
Do you know anybody who can take shit day in day out, and do not respond?
I hardly think so.
It's the players who have to learn how to communicate first.

MaudDib wrote:Bottom line is that umps need to be held accountable. If you set expectations and then follow up most of these problems will go away. The problem is that if there is any sort of punishment, no one knows about it and it has little effect. I am not in favor of computers doing the work because computers can have just as many, if not more, problems than a human. What happens if the computer goes down or is off alignment or gets hacked into or any number of possible scenarios. Can you imagine the uproar if something like that happened. Stick with the humans, incorporate an ump in the booth for certain plays (close plays at the base, catches, foul balls, home runs...etc) and setup a system where umps are held accountable upto and including suspension and termination.


Accountable? How?
And for what?
Cause totally clueless broadcasters or journalists think that umps screw things up intentionally, and they make other people believe that crap?
For what we know, they do screw up things once in a while, as every other human does, but not all the time, and intentionally.
And most of them are in the Majors cause they are the best. Replacing an ump with a less experinced, less etc... ump won't solve the problem.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby Maris09 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:05 pm

Syfo-Dyas wrote:You just don't get it.
The ump called it as he saw it. He screwed up. Period. It happens, and had nothing to do with Lawrie taking off on a previous pitch.
And it's an idiotic assumption the he called that pitch a strike because he was showing up.

No, it's was quite obvious to anyone watching the game that he called the 3-1 pitch a strike (late) because Lawrie had taken the liberty to call it a ball himself and head toward first base. I'm sure Lawrie will learn from this situation not to do that in the future, but it was obvious that's what occurred.

It was even more obvious that the 3-2 pitch was called a strike because of how Lawrie acted after the 3-1 pitch (ball) was called a strike. It's not even really debatable that in this specific situation the umpire was upset, and that being upset influenced his calls.


Syfo-Dyas wrote:Accountable? How?
And for what?
Cause totally clueless broadcasters or journalists think that umps screw things up intentionally, and they make other people believe that crap?
For what we know, they do screw up things once in a while, as every other human does, but not all the time, and intentionally.
And most of them are in the Majors cause they are the best. Replacing an ump with a less experinced, less etc... ump won't solve the problem.

I agree that replacing an ump with a less experienced person is not the answer, but you haven't watched enough baseball if you think that situations never arise where an umpire let's a personal situation influence his actions.

What he's saying is that the players are all held accountable for their actions, ie Lawrie was suspended for throwing a temper tantrum (along with his helmut). But umpires should also be held accountable when they act vindictively.

There are umpires out there that intentionally instigate situations rather than trying to difuse them. It doesn't occur a ton, but it does happen. I am in 100% agreement with you that it must be ridiculously difficult to have prima donnas screaming at you everyday (much of the time when they're incorrect), but it's the umpires duty to not let it effect them personally, and when it does, they should be held accountable. In the situation with Lawrie, the umpire in question was absolutely influenced by a personal situation.
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Re: MLB is bush league

Postby Syfo-Dyas » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:30 pm

Maris09 wrote:
Syfo-Dyas wrote:You just don't get it.
The ump called it as he saw it. He screwed up. Period. It happens, and had nothing to do with Lawrie taking off on a previous pitch.
And it's an idiotic assumption the he called that pitch a strike because he was showing up.

No, it's was quite obvious to anyone watching the game that he called the 3-1 pitch a strike (late) because Lawrie had taken the liberty to call it a ball himself and head toward first base. I'm sure Lawrie will learn from this not to do that in the future, but it was obvious that's what occurred.

It was even more obvious that the 3-2 pitch was called a strike because of how Lawrie acted after the 3-1 pitch (ball) was called a strike.

It's not even really debatable that in this specific situation, the umpire was upset and that being upset influenced his calls.


It is very much debatable since nobody can prove anything.
I watched the video and the ump didnt seem upset, and actually he sais something to the pitcher, when Lawrie walks by, after the 3-1 pitch.

Actually that 3-1 pitch wasnt that bad at all, and Ive seen that called a strike many times, since the umpire almost never has a clear view of the outside of the zone.
Ive seen worse.

And Ive seen many batters takin off when they thought it was ball 4, and pitchers and catchers starting towards the dugout when they thought it was strike 3, without thinking getting effd on the next pitch.

I agree on that if a player makes an umpire upset, calls not gonna go his way. Every borderline pitch will be a strike, (or ball if its the catcher or the pitcher), and on every close play on the bases he will be out.
But you dont do it when everyone in the whole world can tell that its retribution.
So in this case, it was such a bad call that retribution is not the most probable explanation IMO.
Its like the case when Helton was couple of feet off 1st base, yet the batter-runner was called out. Too obvious to be retribution. And nobody considered that as a retribution.

One of the first things taught to umpires that don't call too high and too low pitches strikes cause everyone can see your mistake!
Don't call inside balls strike cause the batter has a very clear view of that, and he'll be very mad at you.
But you can expand the zone on the outside. The batters have a worse view of the outside pitch than the ump, so they can't tell anything for sure on a close pitch.
In this case the 3-2 pitch was clearly so high and outside, that the whole stadium could see it.

So theres no indication that the 3-2 pitch was a FU call other than Lawrie took off on the previous pitch?
And thats why its obvious?
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