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If you could have any 5 SP....

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Re: If you could have any 5 SP....

Postby Pogotheostrich » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:17 am

Syfo-Dyas wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:Kershaw
Felix
Halladay
Verlander
Lincecum

Those choosing CJ Wilson are insane.


Another insane here.

Halladay
Wilson
JJ
Hamels
Strasburg

BTW you can't take Halladay and Verlander and Kershaw.


In that case.

Kershaw
Felix
Lincecum
C. Lee
Greinke

I still think you are crazy if you select C.J. Wilson.
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Re: If you could have any 5 SP....

Postby Syfo-Dyas » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:49 am

Pogotheostrich wrote:
Syfo-Dyas wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:Kershaw
Felix
Halladay
Verlander
Lincecum

Those choosing CJ Wilson are insane.


Another insane here.

Halladay
Wilson
JJ
Hamels
Strasburg

BTW you can't take Halladay and Verlander and Kershaw.


In that case.

Kershaw
Felix
Lincecum
C. Lee
Greinke

I still think you are crazy if you select C.J. Wilson.


Read the first post.
Kershaw or C. Lee
Slowly but surely you are closing in on Wilson :-D
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Re: If you could have any 5 SP....

Postby bigh0rt » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:58 am

Syfo-Dyas wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:
Syfo-Dyas wrote:
Another insane here.

Halladay
Wilson
JJ
Hamels
Strasburg

BTW you can't take Halladay and Verlander and Kershaw.


In that case.

Kershaw
Felix
Lincecum
C. Lee
Greinke

I still think you are crazy if you select C.J. Wilson.


Read the first post.
Kershaw or C. Lee
Slowly but surely you are closing in on Wilson :-D

Even if this was 'Pick any 10 SP' I don't know that Wilson would make the cut... and I'm high on the guy.
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Re: If you could have any 5 SP....

Postby Pogotheostrich » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:47 pm

bigh0rt wrote:Even if this was 'Pick any 10 SP' I don't know that Wilson would make the cut... and I'm high on the guy.

I know he wouldn't make my cut. I'd easily take the 2 guys on his own team ahead of him for starters.
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If you could have any 5 SP....

Postby lastingsgriller » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:47 pm

As it appears this has turned to a discussion about cj Wilson. Let's get some fact/numbers rolling around.

So, those of you opposed to CJ in the top 5, what is he lacking that the other pitchers possess?

Last year he took pretty big strides forward in whip, k/9, and k/bb. I would assume the move from tex to laa will improve his whip.

Also, those that have him in top 5, what say you? Why is he as good or better than haren/weaver/hamels/lincecum?
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Re: If you could have any 5 SP....

Postby Skin Blues » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:09 pm

I have Wilson ranked as the 23rd fantasy SP this season.

He's lacking in every category compared to the top 10 pitchers. The only category he beats any of them in is Strasburg's Ws and Haren's Ks. But that's only because Strasburg has an innings cap. Wilson's WHIP is considerably bad. The only other SP in my top 25 with a worse WHIP (or even coming close) is Yovani Gallardo. And Gallardo is one of only a couple guys with a higher ERA as well.
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If you could have any 5 SP....

Postby lastingsgriller » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:36 pm

I am pretty neutral here... But I did not have him in my top 5 or even top 6.

I think the counter argument to yours is that in his second season as a starting pitcher he improved his whip from 1.25 to 1.19 (which is not considerably bad). His era improved from 3.35 to 2.94. So he is clearly progressing along a learning curve. Additionally the move from tex to laa should create significant improvements due to ballpark factor, defense behind him and getting out of Texas heat.
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Re: If you could have any 5 SP....

Postby bigh0rt » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:46 pm

lastingsgriller wrote:I am pretty neutral here... But I did not have him in my top 5 or even top 6.

I think the counter argument to yours is that in his second season as a starting pitcher he improved his whip from 1.25 to 1.19 (which is not considerably bad). His era improved from 3.35 to 2.94. So he is clearly progressing along a learning curve. Additionally the move from tex to laa should create significant improvements due to ballpark factor, defense behind him and getting out of Texas heat.
Correct, and if he takes another step forward he might approach some of the numbers the other SP mentioned post regularly. Some of them could have some real poor luck and/or regression and still out-perform Wilson. It doesn't speak to Wilson being a bad pitcher, but more to how elite some of these other arms are.

PS - I won this thread the instant HOOTIE agreed with my 5.
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If you could have any 5 SP....

Postby lastingsgriller » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:54 pm

bigh0rt wrote:Correct, and if he takes another step forward he might approach some of the numbers the other SP mentioned post regularly. Some of them could have some real poor luck and/or regression and still out-perform Wilson. It doesn't speak to Wilson being a bad pitcher, but more to how elite some of these other arms are.


I accept this premise. Seems pretty flawless. Now, those that pick CJ ahead of hamels/haren/weaver, what say you??
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Re: If you could have any 5 SP....

Postby Skin Blues » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:38 pm

lastingsgriller wrote:I am pretty neutral here... But I did not have him in my top 5 or even top 6.

I think the counter argument to yours is that in his second season as a starting pitcher he improved his whip from 1.25 to 1.19 (which is not considerably bad). His era improved from 3.35 to 2.94. So he is clearly progressing along a learning curve. Additionally the move from tex to laa should create significant improvements due to ballpark factor, defense behind him and getting out of Texas heat.

1.19 WHIP is good if he can repeat it. However none of the top projection systems thinks he can. Steamer is as good as it gets at projecting pitchers and they have him down for a 1.33 WHIP. Bill James has 1.23. ZiPS is 1.27. Mine is somewhere in between. Even last year's 1.19 only puts him 29th amongst qualified starting pitchers so you can see why he loses points there. WHIP has such a small fluctuation (it's per inning as opposed to per 9 innings like ERA, so any differences are reduced by a factor of 9) that it's hard to comprehend what that difference means. The small gap between Haren and Wilson's projected WHIP is the same in practical terms as the difference in ERA between Clayton Kershaw and Yovani Gallardo. Which is to say: pretty big.

So yes... I'd like to hear the argument for CJ Wilson over Dan Haren.
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