Can you punt BA and still win your league? - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2015 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Analyze/Rate My Team

Can you punt BA and still win your league?

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Can you punt BA and still win your league?

Postby Izenhart » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:14 am

I've actually never tried this, and with an unlimited resource for making teams and practicing drafts I decided to hit up a Yahoo! auction draft to see what I could come up with.

There's plenty of low average OF's who can steal bases and pitch in some power, like Drew Stubbs, Chris Young and B.J. Upton. Since my hitting should be cost effective I could land a couple big name starters. I decided to just overpay for the likes of Kershaw and Verlander and see what happens. I figured since my hitting will be piling up the K's my pitching should too! I definitely overpayed for some guys - but that's how it goes when you target specific players, limiting the pool you choose to draft from. I still find the end result intriguing:

Projected Lineup:
C $4 J.P. Arencibia
1 $1 Adam Dunn
2 $21 Dan Uggla
3 $9 Mark Reynolds
S $13 Jimmy Rollins
O $32 Curtis Granderson
O $30 Giancarlo Stanton
O $11 Chris Young
D $17 B.J. Upton
D $1 Carlos Pena

B $1 Kelly Johnson
B $1 Will Venable

S $40 Justin Verlander
S $38 Clayton Kershaw
R $7 Sergio Santos
R $7 Carlos Marmol
P $8 Cory Luebke
P $7 Huston Street
P $5 Jeremy Hellickson
P $2 Matt Thornton

B $1 Francisco Liriano
B $1 Doug Fister
B $1 Chris Sale

The only player I thought I would get but didn't was Stubbs. I see Will Venable as someone who could return similar value if he plays full time while the Padres OF is a bit hobbled. Lorenzo Cain could be a replacement option from the wire if he doesn't work out.

What do you think?
Izenhart
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1611
(Past Year: 286)
Joined: 22 Mar 2012
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Big Papiville

Re: Can you punt BA and still win your league?

Postby alexpic » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:22 am

This is awesome! When I read the title, I chuckled a bit, but your team is very competitive without hardly any BA! Stubbs would have been perfect for this stragegy lol, but the only other worry you have is SB, but I bet you'll be fine. You'll win HR for sure, and that helps your RBI and R too.

I'm interested to see how this works out.
alexpic
Softball Supervisor
Softball Supervisor


Posts: 40
Joined: 25 Jan 2012
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Can you punt BA and still win your league?

Postby Izenhart » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:49 am

Izenhart wrote:I've actually never tried this, and with an unlimited resource for making teams and practicing drafts I decided to hit up a Yahoo! auction draft to see what I could come up with.

There's plenty of low average OF's who can steal bases and pitch in some power, like Drew Stubbs, Chris Young and B.J. Upton. Since my hitting should be cost effective I could land a couple big name starters. I decided to just overpay for the likes of Kershaw and Verlander and see what happens. I figured since my hitting will be piling up the K's my pitching should too! I definitely overpayed for some guys - but that's how it goes when you target specific players, limiting the pool you choose to draft from. I still find the end result intriguing:

Projected Lineup:
C $4 J.P. Arencibia
1 $1 Adam Dunn
2 $21 Dan Uggla
3 $9 Mark Reynolds
S $13 Jimmy Rollins
O $32 Curtis Granderson
O $30 Giancarlo Stanton
O $11 Chris Young
D $17 B.J. Upton
D $1 Carlos Pena

B $1 Kelly Johnson
B $1 Will Venable

S $40 Justin Verlander
S $38 Clayton Kershaw
R $7 Sergio Santos
R $7 Carlos Marmol
P $8 Cory Luebke
P $7 Huston Street
P $5 Jeremy Hellickson
P $2 Matt Thornton

B $1 Francisco Liriano
B $1 Doug Fister
B $1 Chris Sale

The only player I thought I would get but didn't was Stubbs. I see Will Venable as someone who could return similar value if he plays full time while the Padres OF is a bit hobbled. Lorenzo Cain could be a replacement option from the wire if he doesn't work out.

What do you think?


Thought I would give this a quick update.

My starting lineup is actually the same from when I drafted this team. I've been starting Kelly Johnson over Pena recently. All the rest of the hitting is the same except I dropped Venable for Pegan on the bench.

My pitching has seen some turnover. Dropped Luebke and Hellickson for McDonald and Moore (!). Also been starting Sale all season. Relief I ended up with Aceves and Street. It's been an active league and closers are no where to be found, and usually picked up well before they fall into the job.

I am in second place out of 12, 6.5 behind the leader. Shockingly I'm dead last in batting average :-D Leading the league in home runs and whip, top half in every other category except BA and SV. Runs and SBs seem to be my weaker points on the hitting side. I really wish I had picked up Trout here, I missed him by 2 hours.
Izenhart
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1611
(Past Year: 286)
Joined: 22 Mar 2012
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Big Papiville

Re: Can you punt BA and still win your league?

Postby aerrico » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:47 am

I didn't see this thread when you first posted it, but I think that because batting average is one of the harder categories to predict for offensive players (since there seems to be more luck involved with BABIP), I think that drafting your team for power and speed is the best way to draft offense. Obviously, your highest auction / draft picks should provide value across the board, but if you're deciding between a guy with less power and more average, I think I'd take the guy with more power all day.

I like this team just fine outside of Mark Reynolds, who I actually think is such a bad average hitter that he isn't worth the power. My thinking with the batting average point would be that you don't necessarily draft FOR batting average, but you don't try to PUNT it either. I would draft for power and speed and hope that the average ends up somewhere reasonable (obviously you won't win batting average, but you shouldn't plan on finishing last either).

The only big criticism I would have would be the big spending that you decided to use on starting pitching. I know you noted this in the opening post, but I just think it's a huge mistake to spend 30 percent of your team payroll on 2 starting pitchers, which at very best, give you 65 or so starts on the year. I drafted with this strategy but ended up with an extra elite guy or two that provided all categories, including speed and power. I think that this strategy should just be tweaked a bit, going on the same thought that you can draft strictly for speed and power on offense, but also implement the idea that there is a TON of starting pitching to be had, so just go ahead and draft as many elite speed power guys as you can, and worry about pitching a bit later. If you were to replace Verlander and Kershaw with Greinke and Bumgarner let's say, you probably would have spent 30-35 dollars less while getting fairly similar numbers in the pitching categories. That money could have been used to draft a top 10 offensive player or two really solid offensive players that give a ton of speed and power.

Again, I do like the idea of not necessarily worrying about batting average, unless it's a guy that can kill your entire team's batting average efforts and put you in dead last. I don't mind rolling the dice on Dunn for 1 dollar, but spending 9 on Reynolds was a bit much in my opinion. Also, I think you should have moved on from him by now.

Good luck to you the rest of the way, though! Still a very solid team!
aerrico
College Coach
College Coach


Posts: 147
(Past Year: 4)
Joined: 9 Apr 2012
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Can you punt BA and still win your league?

Postby Izenhart » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:29 am

Thanks for the feedback! The reason why I ended up punting BA purposefully and not taking higher BA guys is because it's usually a huge jump in cost from a low BA guy who hits HRs and steals bases, to a high or even decent BA guy who does both. Adam Dunn was a buck, so was Pena. Didn't see a reason to upgrade 1B. And at 3B I saw Reynolds as a lock for 30 HR, with a shot at 40 for under 10 bucks. You're right I should have moved on from him by now, especially since I'm already leading the league in HRs.

As far as pitching went, I had some low cost guys targeted and found I had the room to add both Verlander and Kershaw. I could have instead of Kershaw/Luebke gone Bumgarner/Weaver but before the season I didn't project Bumgarner too much higher than Luebke (But only because I had Luebke high, I did end up with Bumgarner on many teams)

I used this strategy on a couple of teams actually, this was my first draft. I was thinking along your lines and wanted to diversify middle upper tier pitchers and cover stolen bases more. I also wanted to try this strategy in both roto and H2H.

My H2H teams are 62-32-6 (2nd), 57-36-7 (1st), and 56-39-5 (3rd)
My roto teams are also 2nd, 1st and 3rd.

The 1st place teams have a better balance of more expensive pitching and less money spent on hitting, oddly enough. (Getting Trout on 3 teams has also made a huge difference) One 1st place team sports Grienke, Haren, Strasburg, Weaver, Morrow, JJohnson, Sale, Romero and Fister. Somehow found the budget for Papelbon too :-° Currently dominating all SP pitching categories and 3rd in saves ;-D

Overall my hitting hasn't quite lived up to expectations. Runs is hard to keep up in on a team of guys who bat 4th and 5th and K every other at bat :-D
Izenhart
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1611
(Past Year: 286)
Joined: 22 Mar 2012
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Big Papiville

Re: Can you punt BA and still win your league?

Postby aerrico » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:12 am

Definitely like the draft strategy as I said. If this was your first year playing fantasy (I think you just said this was your first draft if I read correctly) then you are going to do quite well as a fantasy baseball player/manager. Always try to target the most predictable categories such as HRs and SBs for offensive players and Ks and QS for pitchers. Categories like batting average, wins, and saves are very hard to predict year to year, and this is why most experts won't advocate spending much money on them.

Also remember, that when you spend draft money on a guy, you want to be spending money on the categories that are the most difficult to replace on the free agent wire. This is the other main reason I never specifically target batting average guys. There will ALWAYS be guys on the free agent wire that can give you empty batting average, and if you are able to snag many offensive players that give you a good combination of speed and power without being first or second round type guys, then you should have more than enough firepower to sustain an empty batting average guy or two (that maybe scores runs and steals bases at a decent clip also) off the free agent wire once you see where your team is. This is the strategy that I always try to use on offense... your auction dollars need to be spent on the categories that are most difficult to replace (those being HRs and RBIs in my opinion; hopefully getting SBs out of the guys that provide these categories for extra speed). The free agent wire is your friend for the categories that you were not able to spend as much of your money on (saves, batting average, SB, etc.)

The free agent wire is also your friend for acquiring good matchups for starting pitching; again this goes to the point that spending a ton of money on big time starting pitching usually is not worth it because their numbers can be "replaced" easier through streaming than an offensive players' numbers could be. And then the last thing, which is a point that I'm sure has been belabored: never pay for saves. This year may be the best example for this point ever as probably 50 percent of the closers that were opening day closers no longer have the job right now. Never spend money on guys that are really only providing you with one category, as their ERA and WHIP are only over a small inning sample, so it doesn't help your team enough to justify their draft day price.

It seems to me that you have implemented all of this stuff very well in your drafts this year, but that would be the best way I could personally break down why it works. The breakdown seemed to make sense as it goes to your original question, asking if you could punt batting average. Again, I wouldn't necessarily try to PUNT it, but I'm definitely not drafting FOR it. Good luck to you the rest of the way!
aerrico
College Coach
College Coach


Posts: 147
(Past Year: 4)
Joined: 9 Apr 2012
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Can you punt BA and still win your league?

Postby Izenhart » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:17 pm

Time for one last in season update

Currently in 1st despite not really adjusting my lineup for a month. 5 points ahead of 2nd place. Plucked Moore off the FA wire just before he got hot and he has returned 8 wins and a 2.79 era in 96 IP. I replaced Reynolds with Headley and that is working out well. Also plucked Howard off the FA wire, his low AVG fits right in with my team. Currently hitting .242 I'm hoping to get it into the .230s and still win the league :-D

league link for anyone who wants a quick look: http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com ... /standings
Izenhart
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1611
(Past Year: 286)
Joined: 22 Mar 2012
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Big Papiville

Re: Can you punt BA and still win your league?

Postby Quackman » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:09 am

Obviously production and batting ave are interelated. Looking at your team i think you have just about the perfect lineup to punt ba but as a general strategy that someone should use...it sucks. Your always risking the other stats with bad batting ave. Obv its worked for you but you got lucky and drafted a bunch of guys with high production that dont hit for ave.

good luck rest of the way.
Quackman
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor


Posts: 554
(Past Year: 64)
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Can you punt BA and still win your league?

Postby Izenhart » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:49 am

Quackman wrote:... you got lucky and drafted a bunch of guys with high production that dont hit for ave.


This is why the strategy worked. I targeted players who produce positively in 4 categories without needing to account for BA. Players like these I feel are undervalued and shied away from, and thus can be had at reasonable prices at an auction. Use a stragety of targeting all undervalued players that fit within a certain criteria and you have a very cheap lineup that will compete enough in standard roto to keep you competitive, assuming you use the saved dollars wisely and take great pitching.

This has actually worked better in H2H this season, and am currently in 1st place in all teams I drafted using this method.
Izenhart
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1611
(Past Year: 286)
Joined: 22 Mar 2012
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Big Papiville

Re: Can you punt BA and still win your league?

Postby Quackman » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:45 am

Izenhart wrote:
Quackman wrote:... you got lucky and drafted a bunch of guys with high production that dont hit for ave.


This is why the strategy worked. I targeted players who produce positively in 4 categories without needing to account for BA. Players like these I feel are undervalued and shied away from, and thus can be had at reasonable prices at an auction. Use a stragety of targeting all undervalued players that fit within a certain criteria and you have a very cheap lineup that will compete enough in standard roto to keep you competitive, assuming you use the saved dollars wisely and take great pitching.

This has actually worked better in H2H this season, and am currently in 1st place in all teams I drafted using this method.


Ya but i wouldnt bank on it as a general strat. Low BA can catch up to you at anytime,,,,its something i wouldnt bet on in fantasy playoffs. Good luck though.
Quackman
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor


Posts: 554
(Past Year: 64)
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Home Cafe: Baseball

Next

Return to Analyze/Rate My Team

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Get Ready...
The 2015 MLB season starts in 5:43 hours
(and 97 days)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact