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Keeper System Changes

Moderators: Fade2White12, j24jags

How Should We Alter the Current Keeper System?

Leave it the same.
0
No votes
Time limits on keepers.
0
No votes
Escalating round penalties.
10
100%
 
Total votes : 10

Re: Keeper System Changes

Postby j24jags » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:05 am

Ender wrote:I think at the very least you should be able to keep 1 guy for his entire career so I don't like having every guy who reached 1st round status falling off of your roster the next season.

I'd be ok with a system where if you have 2 guys saved at a 1st round value you have to let 1 of them fall off the next season though. The caveat being that people with more than 1 current 1st rounder right now shouldn't have that harsh of a penalty thrown at them instantly so they could redistribute their 1st rounders. So if someone had say 5 1st rounders right now then next year they could keep them at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th with them deciding which one is which round. Then in the future one of them would fall off each season.

I also don't have a huge problem with people keeping more than one 1st rounder, I just offered the above as a suggestion for those who don't like it.

I really like these ideas Ender.

I also like jusman's proposal about creating multiple tiers with steeper escalations for the players taken in the latest rounds.
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Re: Keeper System Changes

Postby Fade2White12 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:26 pm

As the only owner with multiple first round players, I think you guys are conspiring against me. !+)
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Re: Keeper System Changes

Postby j24jags » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:39 pm

Fade2White12 wrote:As the only owner with multiple first round players, I think you guys are conspiring against me. !+)

The nice thing about Ender's system though is that you would still have 4 of them next season (you'd be able to choose which 4 by ranking them rounds 2-5). The following season you'd have 3 (again you'd choose which 3)...I trust that you'll be able to find at least one solid keeper at some point in the draft per season (which is all you'd have to if you just lose one first round pick each year).
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Re: Keeper System Changes

Postby RedBullVodka » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:15 pm

While I see what Ender and j24Jags are saying, personally, I'm against a system that means you are forced to drop a player at some point.

Going back to my earlier comments in the previous thread:
1) Five keepers appears to have only a minor effect on success in league
2) Differences in value in early rounds is less important than in later rounds.

So, if someone has three round 1 keepers, it means he can't pick again until round 4, and misses out on a lot of re-draft talent in that time, and, at the same time, how likely is it that someone has three keepers in round 1, that remain at that value for very long?

Remember that is three players out of the top 14 in a redraft league. There is enough turnover every year that I can't see it, and if one of those players drops a little the next year to be a round 2 or 3 pick, then that is closer to the value the player holding him will be getting anyway.

And with our escalation system, most of the real bargains are going to take a long time to reach Rd 1 value anyway - and i think these were the targets of the changes anyway?

I just think we might be getting too hung up on the Rd 1 issue. If we implemented this change, probably only Fade, and maybe a couple of others would have two Rd 1 picks next year anyway.

Ayebatter has Rd 1-3 this year; TD has Rds 1&2; AO has rd 1&2. The guy who might have most Rd 1 picks in future years is Aqua, with Lincecum (2), Lee (3), Grandy (4), Votto (5) and Cano (8), but even with him, this is going to take a while to work through, and I don't see some of those guys holding their value for that long?

My preference remains:

Simple escalation and no other changes - I like Jusman's proposal

1st - 5th - Pick escalates 1 round per year.
6th - 11th - Pick escalates 2 rounds per year.
12th - 20th - Pick escalates 3 rounds per year.
21st - 26th - Pick escalates 4 rounds per year.
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Re: Keeper System Changes

Postby Fade2White12 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:37 pm

j24jags wrote:
Fade2White12 wrote:As the only owner with multiple first round players, I think you guys are conspiring against me. !+)

The nice thing about Ender's system though is that you would still have 4 of them next season (you'd be able to choose which 4 by ranking them rounds 2-5). The following season you'd have 3 (again you'd choose which 3)...I trust that you'll be able to find at least one solid keeper at some point in the draft per season (which is all you'd have to if you just lose one first round pick each year).


I hear ya, and I wouldn't put up a huge stink if something along those lines is what we ultimately decide, but I'm just against it because I think it achieves something beyond its intent.

1. Like Ender brought up before, I would prefer to be able to keep any play which I own for as long as I want. While that may mean that I'm overpaying for him in time due to the round escalations, any time limit or requirement that jettisons someone from your roster, I will ultimately be against it. The "indefinite" nature of this specific league is what appealed to me most when we made it a keeper, and that is always how it's been sold to new owners as the league has moved forward.
2. I don't really see any issue with people having multiple Round 1 picks, as it doesn't really provide an advantage to that person. Players that cost their owner simply their market value provides little competitive advantage. Where is the greatest difference - Evan Longoria at Rd 1 vs Jay Bruce at Rd 1: or Eric Hosmer at Rd 26 vs. Drew Pomeranz at Rd. 26? I just think that any effort made at deterring people from owning multiple players at higher rounds loses sight of what problems we're really attempting to address.

RedBullVodka wrote:While I see what Ender and j24Jags are saying, personally, I'm against a system that means you are forced to drop a player at some point.

Going back to my earlier comments in the previous thread:
1) Five keepers appears to have only a minor effect on success in league
2) Differences in value in early rounds is less important than in later rounds.

So, if someone has three round 1 keepers, it means he can't pick again until round 4, and misses out on a lot of re-draft talent in that time, and, at the same time, how likely is it that someone has three keepers in round 1, that remain at that value for very long?

Remember that is three players out of the top 14 in a redraft league. There is enough turnover every year that I can't see it, and if one of those players drops a little the next year to be a round 2 or 3 pick, then that is closer to the value the player holding him will be getting anyway.

And with our escalation system, most of the real bargains are going to take a long time to reach Rd 1 value anyway - and i think these were the targets of the changes anyway?

I just think we might be getting too hung up on the Rd 1 issue. If we implemented this change, probably only Fade, and maybe a couple of others would have two Rd 1 picks next year anyway.

Ayebatter has Rd 1-3 this year; TD has Rds 1&2; AO has rd 1&2. The guy who might have most Rd 1 picks in future years is Aqua, with Lincecum (2), Lee (3), Grandy (4), Votto (5) and Cano (8), but even with him, this is going to take a while to work through, and I don't see some of those guys holding their value for that long?

My preference remains:

Simple escalation and no other changes - I like Jusman's proposal

1st - 5th - Pick escalates 1 round per year.
6th - 11th - Pick escalates 2 rounds per year.
12th - 20th - Pick escalates 3 rounds per year.
21st - 26th - Pick escalates 4 rounds per year.


Exactly how I feel. I'm not sure if those escalation numbers/number or tiers is precisely what I'd advocate though, but I agree that some sort of sliding scale is the best option. That, or something that's a cross between it and ayebatter's suggestion - making anyone drafted after Rd 15 can only be kept at the Rd 15 penalty (whether we allow them to first be kept for a year or two at the round they are originally drafted, could also be considered).
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Re: Keeper System Changes

Postby ayebatter » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:48 pm

I think we're getting too deep here, we all know/knew that there would be some incredible bargains taken late, those that sacrificed a spot on their reserve rosters to be a bit forward looking deserve to be rewarded, we all had the same chance, some took it, some decided to go for the win that year and drafted players that they thought would help get them there. We all would like to be able to keep certain players for ever, that's the way we set it up. This isn't about being fair after the fact, take your lumps for a season and draft some of those future studs and you too can be sitting pretty, me I'm going to try and win each and every season, you guys can have the late round studs, I'll play with Reynolds in the 2nd. I still think my plan stays closest to our original intent, and I'll understand if you disagree and decide to leave.

rant/

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Re: Keeper System Changes

Postby Fade2White12 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:07 am

And I really wouldn't have a problem with that, aye. But I think that most people here are advocating for something a bit heavier than that. No one as of yet has spoken up in support of something that doesn't at least escalate early and mid-round picks at some level. I think something more palatable to everyone else might be just taking your suggestion and then adding that everyone moves up a round each year.


But now that we've more or less heard from everyone that actually wants to be heard, how do you guys want to go about actually making a decision here? Polls? Rock-paper-scissors?
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Re: Keeper System Changes

Postby RedBullVodka » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:28 am

I guess it has to be a poll. Unless you know of a virtual rock / paper / scissors site. (There's probably an app for that).

How about:

How should keepers be escalated:

1) Any player picked after Round 15 is kept as a Round 15 player. No other player is escalated (Aye's suggestion).
2) All players increased by 1 round / year kept
3) Sliding scale for escalation, with later round picks escalated more than early round picks (exact round escalation to be determined by a further poll if this is most popular option).

We might also need a further poll to decide on what to do multiple round (1) picks, depending on option picked.
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