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Gio Gonzalez vs. Jordan Zimmerman

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Re: Gio Gonzalez vs. Jordan Zimmerman

Postby HighHeater » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:15 am

HOOTIE wrote:
rjforlife wrote:I think it's gonna be Gio this year, and not close. He pitches deeper into games than Zimmerman, which should result in more wins given they are on the same team. The added inning and already better K/9 also means Gio should be 40-50 more K's than Zimmerman, as the switch to the NL may only serve to further that gap. ERA is a legitimate toss-up, so there's no real way to say who has the edge there. Gio certainly walks more batters, but he strikes more out at as well, getting his strand rate up and keeping his ERA down. The WHIP is the only arena Zimmerman has the clear edge, and it could be significant, but if you want to start drafting pitchers on WHIP alone, good luck to you. I will take the massive K's, probable more W's, and worse WHIP every time.


Career whip

JZ 1.23
GG 1.41

More baserunners, mean more runs, less likely chance to win.

Career xFIP

JZ 3.66
GG 3.98

As far as deeper into games,

GG last year, 6.31 innings per start.
JZ last year, 6.20 innings per start.
Now factor in, Gio never got pulled for a pinch hitter, which will happen now in the NL.

GG will miss Oaklands foul ground.

Career splits

H 3.56 era
R 4.32 era

GG gets more K's, the wins is a toss up, depending on run support, but JZ wins the era/whip.
Given GG no longer has Oakland to help him, and he will get pulled sooner then in the AL,
I take JZ easily, because he is better at preventing base runners, by a large amount.


+1

Hootie, very well stated I just got lazy and put saber in mine lol. People act as if Gio is a lock and these are the people who dont look into pitching stats. The only edge i can possibly see Gio beating Zim at is k per 9 which is debatable since I see his k's climbing back up to previous levels.

I made a post on Zimmermann last preseason for people to get this kid as he looks like a possible JJ and he didnt disappoint... hes going to approach 200ip this year too.
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Re: Gio Gonzalez vs. Jordan Zimmerman

Postby West » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:05 am

HighHeater wrote: I made a post on Zimmermann last preseason for people to get this kid as he looks like a possible JJ and he didnt disappoint... hes going to approach 200ip this year too.


A possible Josh Johnson as in only topping 200 innings once in his career? It's very possible.
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Re: Gio Gonzalez vs. Jordan Zimmerman

Postby raiders_umpire » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:35 am

I like Zimmerman.
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Re: Gio Gonzalez vs. Jordan Zimmerman

Postby J35J » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:38 am

Zimmerman is the better pitcher but with his likely limited Innings and injury history and Gio going to the NL, I'll probably take Gio slightly before Zimmerman....too be honest I doubt either ends up on my teams though.
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Re: Gio Gonzalez vs. Jordan Zimmerman

Postby rjforlife » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:34 pm

Hootie you make some strong points, but I disagree on the angle you took to assess pitching deeper into games. The average length of start is misleading because it places a value on never going very short, but no premium on going very deep. Last year, Gio pitched 7 or more innings 13 out of 32 starts. Zimmerman accomplished that feat only 6 out of 26 starts. Maybe 7 innings is a bit of an arbitrary cutoff, but I feel as though most teams try to have lockdown guys for the 8th and 9th, whereas the 7th can often be a mess, so pitching 7 strong innings often leads to winning baseball games. I don't know why the K/9 should change drastically for either player, so the edge goes to strongly to Gio, and really, changing leagues may only serve to help Gio, just look at C. Lee, a lefty from the AL West who came into the NL east. His K/9 went from 7.8 in the AL West in '10 to 9.2 in in the NL East in '11. They aren't the exact same pitcher but with the similarities, a comparison seems fair to me. I have to go grocery shopping now, perhaps more later.
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Re: Gio Gonzalez vs. Jordan Zimmerman

Postby Skin Blues » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:07 am

Pretty close overall; Gio with the K's, Zimmermann with the WHIP. I'd go with Zimmermann though. Not dealing with a league change, and he relied heavily on his home park in Oakland. Zimmerman is also being drafted later, although not by much.
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Re: Gio Gonzalez vs. Jordan Zimmerman

Postby BigLebowski » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:27 am

Interesting to see how some are saying it is clear cut one way or the other. I see them both as pretty close, but I'd go with Zimmerman if I had to choose and I was on the clock, all thing being equal. However I would base my pick on what my teams needs were. If I was short on K's I'd head to Gio...if I was good on K's then I'd pick Zimm and take his ratio's. It's not just one player vs. one player...you need to balance that roster out.
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Re: Gio Gonzalez vs. Jordan Zimmerman

Postby HighHeater » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:07 pm

I do think some need to realize Zimmerman was an above average strike out pitcher before the TJ... its not like the guy never got anyone out. you can expect that to dip back up the farther away from the TJS as possible. I do see his K's reverting upward to where they were before imo.
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Re: Gio Gonzalez vs. Jordan Zimmerman

Postby Curtis Pride » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:21 pm

Definitely Zimmerman
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Re: Gio Gonzalez vs. Jordan Zimmerman

Postby bigh0rt » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:29 pm

HOOTIE wrote:
rjforlife wrote:I think it's gonna be Gio this year, and not close. He pitches deeper into games than Zimmerman, which should result in more wins given they are on the same team. The added inning and already better K/9 also means Gio should be 40-50 more K's than Zimmerman, as the switch to the NL may only serve to further that gap. ERA is a legitimate toss-up, so there's no real way to say who has the edge there. Gio certainly walks more batters, but he strikes more out at as well, getting his strand rate up and keeping his ERA down. The WHIP is the only arena Zimmerman has the clear edge, and it could be significant, but if you want to start drafting pitchers on WHIP alone, good luck to you. I will take the massive K's, probable more W's, and worse WHIP every time.


Career whip

JZ 1.23
GG 1.41

More baserunners, mean more runs, less likely chance to win.

Career xFIP

JZ 3.66
GG 3.98

As far as deeper into games,

GG last year, 6.31 innings per start.
JZ last year, 6.20 innings per start.
Now factor in, Gio never got pulled for a pinch hitter, which will happen now in the NL.

GG will miss Oaklands foul ground.

Career splits

H 3.56 era
R 4.32 era

GG gets more K's, the wins is a toss up, depending on run support, but JZ wins the era/whip.
Given GG no longer has Oakland to help him, and he will get pulled sooner then in the AL,
I take JZ easily, because he is better at preventing base runners, by a large amount.

I don't disagree with any of this. However, similar to how the argument was made that not facing the pitcher will be detrimental to Kuroda's peripherals, one would assume that getting to face the pitcher should assist in Gio's ability to keep base runners at bay -- to what degree and its effect, I don't know. This may end up being closer than some are giving credit, though.
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