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2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby thedude » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:57 pm

Is there anyway the mods could merge these two threads?
"I do not think baseball of today is any better than it was 30 years ago... I still think Radbourne is the greatest of the pitchers." John Sullivan 1914-Old athletes never change.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby jfg » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:18 pm

Tavish wrote:
jfg wrote:Almost all of the Hall of Fame predictors have him as a borderline candidate, Baseball Reference's Hall of Fame Monitor has him as a lock.

Other locks with same or higher HoF monitor scores:
Todd Helton
Gary Sheffield
Larry Walker
Miguel Tejada
Bernie Williams

How many of those do you think are HoF locks?


Helton for sure, I would say Walker as well. Sheffield and Tejada would be if it weren't for their alleged steroid use, but I still think they have a good chance. I don't think Bernie is anywhere near a lock but I think he has an outside shot being one of the key parts of a dynasty. Plus, he was never a bonafide national star like Mattingly was.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby bigh0rt » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:00 pm

jfg wrote:
Tavish wrote:
jfg wrote:Almost all of the Hall of Fame predictors have him as a borderline candidate, Baseball Reference's Hall of Fame Monitor has him as a lock.

Other locks with same or higher HoF monitor scores:
Todd Helton
Gary Sheffield
Larry Walker
Miguel Tejada
Bernie Williams

How many of those do you think are HoF locks?


Helton for sure, I would say Walker as well. Sheffield and Tejada would be if it weren't for their alleged steroid use, but I still think they have a good chance. I don't think Bernie is anywhere near a lock but I think he has an outside shot being one of the key parts of a dynasty. Plus, he was never a bonafide national star like Mattingly was.

Your qualifications just arent the same as mine I guess. In my book unless the guy didnt put up a peak that made him undoubtedly one of the beasts of the game, or perform at an elite level for a long period of time, Im just not that interested.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby jfg » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:25 pm

I think the Hall of Fame should be a photograph of every era of baseball. The stats matter but it's not the end all for me. Each era needs to be judged on it's own merit and sometimes a player is more than what their stats say. Puckett was one of those guys, Mattingly was too. I also think it's important for Helton and Walker to get in even if you think their stats are skewed by Coors. Coors is a small part of the reason I'd vote them in, just to document that part of baseball history.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby bigh0rt » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:59 pm

jfg wrote:I think the Hall of Fame should be a photograph of every era of baseball. The stats matter but it's not the end all for me. Each era needs to be judged on it's own merit and sometimes a player is more than what their stats say. Puckett was one of those guys, Mattingly was too. I also think it's important for Helton and Walker to get in even if you think their stats are skewed by Coors. Coors is a small part of the reason I'd vote them in, just to document that part of baseball history.

Interesting that you mention Puckett, as it was his HoF Debate thread where a lot of the Mattingly talk started... A lot of people put him (Mattingly) in the same category as Kirby... beloved but not Hall of Fame material.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby bigh0rt » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:01 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
jfg wrote:I think the Hall of Fame should be a photograph of every era of baseball. The stats matter but it's not the end all for me. Each era needs to be judged on it's own merit and sometimes a player is more than what their stats say. Puckett was one of those guys, Mattingly was too. I also think it's important for Helton and Walker to get in even if you think their stats are skewed by Coors. Coors is a small part of the reason I'd vote them in, just to document that part of baseball history.

Interesting that you mention Puckett, as it was his HoF Debate thread where a lot of the Mattingly talk started... A lot of people put him (Mattingly) in the same category as Kirby... beloved but not Hall of Fame material.

Also interesting to see people throwing VORP around in that thread the way they do WAR today. Can't wait for the next hot new untouchable metric acronym I get to learn. :-b
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby Skin Blues » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:22 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:
jfg wrote:I think the Hall of Fame should be a photograph of every era of baseball. The stats matter but it's not the end all for me. Each era needs to be judged on it's own merit and sometimes a player is more than what their stats say. Puckett was one of those guys, Mattingly was too. I also think it's important for Helton and Walker to get in even if you think their stats are skewed by Coors. Coors is a small part of the reason I'd vote them in, just to document that part of baseball history.

Interesting that you mention Puckett, as it was his HoF Debate thread where a lot of the Mattingly talk started... A lot of people put him (Mattingly) in the same category as Kirby... beloved but not Hall of Fame material.

Also interesting to see people throwing VORP around in that thread the way they do WAR today. Can't wait for the next hot new untouchable metric acronym I get to learn. :-b

And VORP and WAR probably completely contradict each other, right? All of a sudden Mattingly is a HOFer with the new metric, probably.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby thedude » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:24 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:
jfg wrote:I think the Hall of Fame should be a photograph of every era of baseball. The stats matter but it's not the end all for me. Each era needs to be judged on it's own merit and sometimes a player is more than what their stats say. Puckett was one of those guys, Mattingly was too. I also think it's important for Helton and Walker to get in even if you think their stats are skewed by Coors. Coors is a small part of the reason I'd vote them in, just to document that part of baseball history.

Interesting that you mention Puckett, as it was his HoF Debate thread where a lot of the Mattingly talk started... A lot of people put him (Mattingly) in the same category as Kirby... beloved but not Hall of Fame material.

Also interesting to see people throwing VORP around in that thread the way they do WAR today. Can't wait for the next hot new untouchable metric acronym I get to learn. :-b


Yeah, I haven't seen VORP, WARP, or EQA cited in a long time.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby Tavish » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:54 am

jfg wrote:I think the Hall of Fame should be a photograph of every era of baseball. The stats matter but it's not the end all for me. Each era needs to be judged on it's own merit and sometimes a player is more than what their stats say. Puckett was one of those guys, Mattingly was too. I also think it's important for Helton and Walker to get in even if you think their stats are skewed by Coors. Coors is a small part of the reason I'd vote them in, just to document that part of baseball history.

I thought Mattingly's era was pretty well represented.

Boggs
Brett
Ripken
Henderson
Yount
Gwynn
Murray
Sandberg
Puckett
Ozzie Smith
Eckersley
Molitor
Carter

For a purely statistical look HEREare the players stats for just the seasons of Mattingly's career. Looking at just those seasons it should put him in the best light possible (at least for the counting stats) since most of the other players' careers won't fall exactly into that timeline.

Mattingly's ranks
BA 11th
2B 3rd
HR 32nd
RBI 7th
R 15th
OBP 104th
SLG 56th
OPS 53rd
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby SpecialFNK » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:06 pm

here is my post from the other thread which had links to players stats.
the 2 names that jump out are McGuire and Palmeiro, but I can't see human voters voting for them.

I don't really remember much specifics of these players, so right now I mostly just have numbers to look at. I also right now have no idea how their career numbers match up vs other current HOF players or how they rank all time.

Barry Larkin? .295/.371/.444/.815/ 2340 hits/
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/3901/career
doesn't look like someone who was great, but he did play SS, from a time when SS was not a big offensive position. I wouldn't call him elite, but in this HOF I would say good enough.

Jeff Bagwell - .297/.408/.540/.948/ 449 HR/ 1529 RBI/ 2314 hits/
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/4626/career
he should be in.

Tim Raines? .294/.385/.425/.810/ 808 SB/ 2605 hits/ 1571 R/
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/1850/career
doesn't jump out as someone great, but he did have 808 SB with 1571 R while batting leadoff.

Edgar Martinez - .312/.418/.515/.933/ 2247 hits/.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/4135/career
I don't think he should get valued down because he was a DH. he was still an elite hitter, and should be in the HOF.

Alan Trammell - .285/.352/.415/.767/ 2365 hits/.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/1028/career
really good for a long period of time, but no.

Larry Walker. .313/.400/.565/.965/.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/4181/career
some really impressive numbers, BUT he REALLY got to benefit from playing in Coors back when it was a great hitters park. should he be valued down because of that? 6 seasons with an OPS above 1.000, but all while with Colorado. or was he just fortunate and you still have to count his career numbers regardless of where he played?

Fred McGriff - .284/.377/.509/.886/ 493 HR/ 1550 RBI/.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/3579/career
I feel biased towards McGriff because he used to be my favorite player. I feel like maybe he is borderline. not what I would call all time great, but in this HOF he should be good enough to get in.

Don Mattingly - .307/.358/.471/.830/ 2153 hits/.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/3056/career
only 14 seasons. 1 MVP, 1 batting title. started with back troubles in 1990 and wasn't the same until he finished in 1995. career wise not what I would call elite.

Dale Murphy - .265/.346/.469/.815/ 2111 hits/.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/1587/career
he did have back to back MVP awards in 1982 and 1983, but his career numbers don't look elite.

Juan Gonzalez - .295/.343/.561/.904/ 434 HR/
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/4398/career
was he not someone who was connected to steroids/PED? if so can't see voters voting for him.

Bernie Williams - .297/.381/.477/.858/ 2336 hits/
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/4695/career
looks really good, but not great.

Jack Morris. - 254 W/ 3.90 ERA/ 1.30 WHIP.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/2263/career
doesn't look like someone great.


Tim Raines was not a HR hitter, so it's not surprising to see his OPS isn't as high as some non HOF players.
Tim Raines is 119 career all time with .385 OBP.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiobp1.shtml
he is also 5th all time in SB with 808.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leade ... reer.shtml
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