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2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby thedude » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:00 pm

jfg wrote:Jeff Bagwell
Rafael Palmeiro
Edgar Martinez
Larry Walker
Mark McGwire
Don Mattingly
Rafael Palmeiro
Bernie Williams
Barry Larkin


I think this is as good of a year as any to just bite the bullet and put all of the controversial candidates in the Hall. There isn't anybody this year who needs their own stage, so get the juicers, the DH and the Coors guy in there all at once and get the media circus out of the way in one year to put a rest to that chapter. Don Mattingly needs to get in this year. He's not even a borderline candidate like a Juan Gonzalez, he's a legitimate HOFer who was one of the biggest stars in the 80's. Larkin is borderline but I'd vote for him.

Mattingly not is a hall of famer, not even close.

edit: because typing on a cell phone sucks.
Last edited by thedude on Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby Tavish » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:01 pm

Element wrote:
Tavish wrote:Larkin, Bagwell, Raines, McGwire. McGwire is on the edge for me and I wouldn't be too upset either way for him. The first three are no doubters for me.


If you let McGwire in then you pretty much need to let Palmiero in (as well as Sosa once eligible). Mac is a very likeable player. I would love to see him in, but I think that it would be a mistake.

I think the two are fairly different cases. Palmeiro would get in (at least to me) due to longevity while McGwire would be on peak production. Just using WAR as a quick comparison, they are roughly the same in career WAR (70 for Mac, 74 for Raffy), but that is based on almost 1000 more games and 4500 more PAs for Palmerio. If a player has both the longevity and the peak then they are in that no-doubt first ballot category to me. Neither one of these guys fits that build and I tend to put more emphasis on peak over longevity when looking at that second tier HoFer.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby bigh0rt » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:04 pm

jfg wrote:Don Mattingly needs to get in this year. He's not even a borderline candidate like a Juan Gonzalez, he's a legitimate HOFer who was one of the biggest stars in the 80's.
No. HERE is a thread from six years ago on the topic. Nothing's changed.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby Tavish » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:09 pm

After Mattingly goes in can we start a Chet Lemon or Jesse Barfield for the Hall campaign? They both are as deserving.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby jfg » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:09 pm

I would agree that some of this has to do with the jersey he wore but from 84-89 he made every All-Star game, finished in the top 15 in MVP voting in all but one year and won it in 1984. He won Gold Gloves in all of those seasons. So, he was only great for half a decade. Nobody has forgotten his name- it shouldn't even be a question that he's a hall of famer. Even at the end of his career he was still hitting for average. So really, for half a decade he was one of the best players in the game, and in only one injury laced season was he less than good.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby jfg » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:18 pm

Tavish wrote:After Mattingly goes in can we start a Chet Lemon or Jesse Barfield for the Hall campaign? They both are as deserving.


Really? Both of those guys were never the face of their game, heck, barely the face of their team. Barfield might have put up some homeruns for a stretch there but his average peaked around .290 and was a career .256 hitter. Lemon never put up a great season, 10-20 homeruns pretty much through his entire career and middle of the road average. Other than Barfield's one great year, Mattingly was better those guys in his "only good" years. That's not even counting defense.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby bigh0rt » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:25 pm

jfg wrote:
Tavish wrote:After Mattingly goes in can we start a Chet Lemon or Jesse Barfield for the Hall campaign? They both are as deserving.


Really? Both of those guys were never the face of their game, heck, barely the face of their team. Barfield might have put up some homeruns for a stretch there but his average peaked around .290 and was a career .256 hitter. Lemon never put up a great season, 10-20 homeruns pretty much through his entire career and middle of the road average. Other than Barfield's one great year, Mattingly was better those guys in his "only good" years. That's not even counting defense.
If Mattingly played for any other team but the Yankees nobody would even think twice. He wasn't even the best 1B in his city during his career.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby Skin Blues » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:38 pm

jfg wrote:I would agree that some of this has to do with the jersey he wore but from 84-89 he made every All-Star game, finished in the top 15 in MVP voting in all but one year and won it in 1984. He won Gold Gloves in all of those seasons. So, he was only great for half a decade. Nobody has forgotten his name- it shouldn't even be a question that he's a hall of famer. Even at the end of his career he was still hitting for average. So really, for half a decade he was one of the best players in the game, and in only one injury laced season was he less than good.

Holy crap, 6 consecutive years of top-15 MVP voting - how is he not already in?! ;-7 And in the era of SABR-awareness the GG, AS and MVP voting has been quite a joke, I can't imagine how bad it was 30 years ago. The only reason anybody would use that criteria to vote him in is if he lacked legitimate qualifications.

Bagwell should have been first ballot, it's inexcusable that they made him wait a year. Should be a sure-fire HOF on his second shot. McGwire should obviously be in but he won't be. Larkin should be in. Raines is borderline. Mattingly should need binoculars to be able to see past the crowd of people between himself and the HOF.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby jfg » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:13 pm

I think the best player to compare Mattingly to is Tony Oliva. They have pretty similar careers, both were top 10 in the league during a half a decade stretch and both had their careers derailed by injury. I'd put both of them in the hall of fame and to anybody other than people who are breaking down the stats piece by piece, they would not look out of place. Most people would be able to take their kid to Cooperstown and see Mattingly next to Ripken, Molitor, Boggs, Gwynn and the rest of his 80's peer and it wouldn't even phase them because he belongs with those guys.
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Re: 2012 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

Postby Tavish » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:26 pm

jfg wrote:
Tavish wrote:After Mattingly goes in can we start a Chet Lemon or Jesse Barfield for the Hall campaign? They both are as deserving.


Really? Both of those guys were never the face of their game, heck, barely the face of their team. Barfield might have put up some homeruns for a stretch there but his average peaked around .290 and was a career .256 hitter. Lemon never put up a great season, 10-20 homeruns pretty much through his entire career and middle of the road average. Other than Barfield's one great year, Mattingly was better those guys in his "only good" years. That's not even counting defense.

You are vastly over-rating how good Mattingly was outside of his excellent 3 year run.

Chet Lemon was a CFer and one of the best (if not the best) defensive CFers in baseball during his career. For their careers, offensively he is only slightly behind Mattingly in terms of production.

Barfield is definitely behind both of them in terms of career offensive performance, but he was probably the best defensive RF in the history of baseball.
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