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Adding pitching category

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Adding pitching category

Postby 23 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:18 pm

We've been traditional 4X4 (Avg., HR, RBI, SB / ERA, W, WHIP, S), but are adding a fifth category next year. Think will go with OPS for offense. What would you suggest as the fifth pitching category? Do you see having wins and quality starts as a bad mix? I'm not a fan of strikeouts or holds. Would think it makes sense to add a non-counting stat to balance out OPS, right?
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Re: Adding pitching category

Postby fast dogs » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:53 pm

I don't think you need to balance categories hitting vs pitching like that, but I'm also going to say if you don't use K's or holds you are already heading in the wrong direction
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Re: Adding pitching category

Postby 23 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:00 pm

Can't get on board with you, fast dogs. As a pitcher at heart, I don't want to put that much credence in Ks and the hold stat (aside from not being an official stat) is flawed. If we went the K route, I think I'd prefer K/BB ratio.
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Re: Adding pitching category

Postby Urban Cohorts » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:08 pm

23 wrote:Can't get on board with you, fast dogs. As a pitcher at heart, I don't want to put that much credence in Ks and the hold stat (aside from not being an official stat) is flawed. If we went the K route, I think I'd prefer K/BB ratio.


I think a K/BB ratio would be a very good fit based on what you have said. It isn't a counting stat, and puts more emphasis on both elite SP and elite RP.

OPS for a 5th hitting category? Why no runs? Have you considered using R/HR/RBI/SB (or SB-CS)/OBP? Seems to me that a league with OPS and no runs will heavily favor power guys over speedsters.
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Re: Adding pitching category

Postby 23 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:36 pm

Thanks, Urban. I agree on K:BB.

I like your line of thinking, but I don't know that it marginalizes the speedsters, does it? If they're strictly SB guys, they are what they are. Sure, Cocoa Crisp steals you 50 bases - that value speaks for itself. But he doesn't hit homers, isn't on base very much and we all know RBIs are basically about luck and opportunity. So why think twice about using a more telling offensive stat (OPS)? Bottom line is the guys who contribute in multiple categories are worth the most and I think OPS is more indicative of a good offensive player.

Top ten in OPS:

Bautista
Cabrera
Gonzalez
Ortiz
Ellsbury
Granderson
Konerko
Avila
Beltre
Cano

Top ten in runs:

Granderson
Kinsler
Ellsbury
Cabrera
Gonzalez
Bautista
Cano
Cabrera
Pedroia
Gordon
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Re: Adding pitching category

Postby fast dogs » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:31 pm

Using wins and QS both plus OPS and no runs just means everyone drafts the boppers and waits on the single, sb, runs guys. And SP gets drafted way before closers, even marginal SP get taken before closers. Call it the sluggers and starters league, theres nothing wrong with that its just going to draft alot differently than most other leagues. If its power hitters and SP you like, you'll love these settings. Soft tossing, innings eaters like Buerle will get drafted way earlier in your league than others; Ichiro and company get taken rounds later than they will almost everywhere else. Some points leagues SP score more than the best hitters and guys draft accordingly, your league will adjust to the settings you choose, its just not my favorite
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Re: Adding pitching category

Postby Urban Cohorts » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:17 pm

23 wrote:I like your line of thinking, but I don't know that it marginalizes the speedsters, does it? If they're strictly SB guys, they are what they are. Sure, Cocoa Crisp steals you 50 bases - that value speaks for itself. But he doesn't hit homers, isn't on base very much and we all know RBIs are basically about luck and opportunity. So why think twice about using a more telling offensive stat (OPS)? Bottom line is the guys who contribute in multiple categories are worth the most and I think OPS is more indicative of a good offensive player.


So if you choose to go with OPS, you will be using HR-RBI-SB-AVG-OPS.

I see a little bit of redundancy in using both AVG and OPS (as AVG is part of OBP, which goes into OPS).

True, a lot of speedsters are one trick ponies. But then you have other guys who not only steal a lot of bags but score Runs and hit for AVG too. So a lot of these guys (like Ichiro) are good in a standard 5x5 league because they contribute in 3 categories. Under your suggested hitting categories, these players will most certainly be downgraded in favor of power hitters / middle of the order hitters. And since AVG is very fickle year to year, there is even less incentive to take the speedster type.

So a guy like Ichiro will help you in SB and AVG. He will hurt you in OPS (since he has little power) and won't help at all in HR/RBI.

A guy like Mark Reynolds, who won't be drafted anywhere near Ichiro in a standard league, will help you in HR, RBI, OPS. He will hurt you in AVG and have minimal effect on steals.

OPS is always going to favor power hitters, as they generally have higher than average walk rates (which will help negate some players poor AVG). Maybe throw out AVG and add in Runs. Runs would boost value to middle of the order elite guys AND put 3 category speedsters on a better playing field.
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Re: Adding pitching category

Postby 23 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:43 pm

fast dogs wrote:And SP gets drafted way before closers, even marginal SP get taken before closers.


We're AL-only, keeper league, just seven teams. So closers are gold. They are rarely available.
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Re: Adding pitching category

Postby 23 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:51 pm

fast dogs wrote:Using wins and QS both plus OPS and no runs just means everyone drafts the boppers and waits on the single, sb, runs guys. And SP gets drafted way before closers, even marginal SP get taken before closers. Call it the sluggers and starters league, theres nothing wrong with that its just going to draft alot differently than most other leagues. If its power hitters and SP you like, you'll love these settings. Soft tossing, innings eaters like Buerle will get drafted way earlier in your league than others; Ichiro and company get taken rounds later than they will almost everywhere else. Some points leagues SP score more than the best hitters and guys draft accordingly, your league will adjust to the settings you choose, its just not my favorite


No I'm with you. There's no need for wins AND quality starts. Frankly, wins remains just because it's traditional Rotisserie, but we all know it's basically a meaningless stat. I'd rather reward quality players. Guys like Fister, Tomlin, Masterson, etc. are worth less because they are on bad teams even though their performance exceeds their stats. I'd rather those guys have increased value vs. a mediocre fifth starter on the Yankees being more valuable. I think that's where K/BB or BA against, something like that, is a better alternative.

Maybe I'll just play around with some player raters and see how the different stat combos shake out.
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Re: Adding pitching category

Postby 23 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:30 pm

Given the choice between BA against and K/BB ratio, which would you choose?
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