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Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby wrveres » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:59 am

Neato Torpedo wrote:
wrveres wrote:okay, i spent some time reading up on the Scandinavian prison systems, and its kind of interesting to say the least. At no point did i find anything that disproved my original point, that lack of education breeds crime. As a matter of fact once imprisoned, some of these prisons actually pay the prisoners to get an education.

First off. Using percentage of population in jail, and recidivism rates, are not the tools to be using here. The crimes rates remain unchanged. The Scandinavian system actually goes out of there way to avoid putting people in prison. They'll try everything from mediation between the victim and criminal, to lots and lots of probation with ankle monitoring, anything but prison. So those rates aren't a fair comparison.

Secondly, i agree with a number things that they do. Im not talking free laptops and big screens, but for softer crimes, probation, monitoring, and an "Education" is a system i could get behind.

All of these countries still run a prison somewhere not unlike the United States, but its used for the worst offenders. Since there populations are a tiny percentage of the US, they obviously have quite a bit less of the hardened types.

One report i read claimed Finland saved $200 million over 20 years. That's nothing really. That's 10 million a year, or the equivalent yearly budget of your local McDonald's franchisee. So they aren't really saving. Something else i found is that the State itself, often pays the victim too, and im guessing that's totally different line in the budget.
Many of these "open society" prisons actually have a two to one guard to prisoner ratio, and everything is done electronically.

Another thing i found interesting, is that when a prisoner does get out of Jail, the state actually finds them a home and a job if needed, instead of letting them walk out the front door with a bus ticket. Again your dealing with a very small percentage of people here, which makes it relatively easy to manage.

Its different, i'll grant you that, and there are some things to be learned there, and many i could get behind. There are also many I could never get behind.
Even after all these changes over the last 30 years, their crime rates remain the same. They are just handled very differently.

So again ... Education is the key.
poor education breeds poverty. poverty breeds crime.
Its the same in Scandinavia cities too.

Glad to see you finally agreed. :-)

The question started off in response to people's indignation to a sentence of only 21 years plus however long it takes for him to be ruled not dangerous. Like you said, the Yeah Government! system seems to work extremely well given the way Scandinavian countries run things. There's no reason to demand punishment or retribution if their prison system is designed to reform even the insanest of terrorists into respectable productive citizens. Gaining a productive citizen is a better outcome than not gaining one. And if they can't make a productive citizen out of him in 21 years, he stays in prison/mental hospital until he does, or until he dies.
a few weeks back we had a discussion about your reading comprehension skills, and I stand by the theory that you either cheated your reading comp tests, or were too over prepared by mummy and daddy that you were just looking for keywords, or someway to scheme the test.

There is no way you can read my post and come away thinking that i condone, or agree that this sicko should be given 21 years, or even be treated humanly for that matter.
I think he should be put down now. Do we really need a trial? let the healing for those families begin now. Save a few bucks, and put the SOB down.
Texas has a law on the books, something along the lines of a speedy hanging if there are three people that witnessed you killing another human being. If you really want to save some money, and cut back on the amount of people in Jail, as well as the recidivism rate, make that a federal law. ha!

Tookie Williams, who I always contended should have been paroled into some probation program instead of, you know, executed. I mean, the man was nominated for a freakin' Nobel Peace Prize and we still executed him. :-S
Yeah, lots of murders get nominated for the award. It's one of the things that makes the Nobel Peace Prize a joke.

I love lefty's ...
"Tookie dude .. he wrote children's books man, let him live."

Never-mind the hundreds of people that met their maker cus of him ... :-t
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby wrveres » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:02 am

bigh0rt wrote:I'm admittedly too lazy to read the last three pages of this in full,
thank god. i was waiting for you to put me on blast.


but wrs, are you talking about a high school level education? College level education? They used to do the latter (in fact, my father taught college courses three nights a week at Green Haven Maximum Security Correctional Facility here in NY when I was younger) -- but then somebody said hey, they're getting for free what I paid $100,000 for -- which doesn't really seem to gel.
a high school education, and ideally a trade.
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby wrveres » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:10 am

Neato Torpedo wrote:Gaining a productive citizen is a better outcome than not gaining one
shame that thought process escapes you lefties when it comes to the government blender over at the family planning store.

all in the name of convenience too. :-t

Imagine if you fought as hard for them, as you do for Tookie.
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby Neato Torpedo » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:54 am

wrveres wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:
wrveres wrote:okay, i spent some time reading up on the Scandinavian prison systems, and its kind of interesting to say the least. At no point did i find anything that disproved my original point, that lack of education breeds crime. As a matter of fact once imprisoned, some of these prisons actually pay the prisoners to get an education.

First off. Using percentage of population in jail, and recidivism rates, are not the tools to be using here. The crimes rates remain unchanged. The Scandinavian system actually goes out of there way to avoid putting people in prison. They'll try everything from mediation between the victim and criminal, to lots and lots of probation with ankle monitoring, anything but prison. So those rates aren't a fair comparison.

Secondly, i agree with a number things that they do. Im not talking free laptops and big screens, but for softer crimes, probation, monitoring, and an "Education" is a system i could get behind.

All of these countries still run a prison somewhere not unlike the United States, but its used for the worst offenders. Since there populations are a tiny percentage of the US, they obviously have quite a bit less of the hardened types.

One report i read claimed Finland saved $200 million over 20 years. That's nothing really. That's 10 million a year, or the equivalent yearly budget of your local McDonald's franchisee. So they aren't really saving. Something else i found is that the State itself, often pays the victim too, and im guessing that's totally different line in the budget.
Many of these "open society" prisons actually have a two to one guard to prisoner ratio, and everything is done electronically.

Another thing i found interesting, is that when a prisoner does get out of Jail, the state actually finds them a home and a job if needed, instead of letting them walk out the front door with a bus ticket. Again your dealing with a very small percentage of people here, which makes it relatively easy to manage.

Its different, i'll grant you that, and there are some things to be learned there, and many i could get behind. There are also many I could never get behind.
Even after all these changes over the last 30 years, their crime rates remain the same. They are just handled very differently.

So again ... Education is the key.
poor education breeds poverty. poverty breeds crime.
Its the same in Scandinavia cities too.

Glad to see you finally agreed. :-)

The question started off in response to people's indignation to a sentence of only 21 years plus however long it takes for him to be ruled not dangerous. Like you said, the Yeah Government! system seems to work extremely well given the way Scandinavian countries run things. There's no reason to demand punishment or retribution if their prison system is designed to reform even the insanest of terrorists into respectable productive citizens. Gaining a productive citizen is a better outcome than not gaining one. And if they can't make a productive citizen out of him in 21 years, he stays in prison/mental hospital until he does, or until he dies.
a few weeks back we had a discussion about your reading comprehension skills, and I stand by the theory that you either cheated your reading comp tests, or were too over prepared by mummy and daddy that you were just looking for keywords, or someway to scheme the test.

There is no way you can read my post and come away thinking that i condone, or agree that this sicko should be given 21 years, or even be treated humanly for that matter.
I think he should be put down now. Do we really need a trial? let the healing for those families begin now. Save a few bucks, and put the SOB down.

If he was in America, I would fully support this. In Norway, it would actually make it worse for the families to kill the guy rather than make him into a productive citizen. They don't like killing people, even people that kill people. I wouldn't expect you to understand a culture of love and understanding, which is so foreign to a culture around which swirls an undercurrent of tribal, animalistic bloodlust. Fix killing with more killing, fix hatred with more hatred, and fix terror with more terror. Unfortunately America is bound by circumstance to have the prison system we have, but we should strive towards one like Norway's in the end.

Think about it like this, too. If the country executes him, he becomes a martyr for the right-wing nutjobs and it will only energize the movement. If he becomes a milkman, he embarrasses the nutjobs and for an added bonus delivers milk to a local town.
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby wrveres » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:36 am

Neato Torpedo wrote:and for an added bonus, takes a job away from some guy that didn't gun down 70 some odd children.

There's only 1000 jobs, and there's 10,000 people to fill em ... "give it to the murderer!!!! Yeah Government""
They don't like killing people, even people that kill people.
Wrong. They get paid by the State to be happy with the arrangement. LOL .... Those sweet Scandinavians, they are just soooo nice and loving, that they just open the door to their homes, and just take em in their arms and embrace em. Yeah Murders!! Yeah!!!!

Please tell me you aren't that delusional dude. Please?
They get cash! Hush Money!! From the Government!!!
I wouldn't expect you to understand a culture of love and understanding, which is so foreign to a culture around which swirls an undercurrent of tribal, animalistic bloodlust.
You sir are delusional. You do believe this crap.
When it comes time to overhaul Americas education system, we really are going to have to start from scratch ... OH MY GOD.
Fix killing with more killing,
yeah, but its just one more guy to kill, and then we are done. ;-7
fix hatred with more hatred,
you mean like that bile i read on that political link you sent.
the right-wing nutjobs
what happened to "fix hatred with more hatred" meme? ... .. lol. I bet there is a word for this hypocrisy. Its .. .. hey check that out ... its hypocrisy. :-)
terror with more terror.
what? who is terrorizing who .. you lost me here, but by now your whole Barbie Playhouse Dream World lalala land thing has me scratching my head ..
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby Madison » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:29 am

Neato Torpedo wrote:Think about it like this, too. If the country executes him, he becomes a martyr for the right-wing nutjobs and it will only energize the movement. If he becomes a milkman, he embarrasses the nutjobs and for an added bonus delivers milk to a local town.


8-o

Real life isn't the elementary school playground where everyone will point and laugh. If a clear message is sent to would-be murderers that if they kill someone, they will die, then the murder rate would drop significantly in any country. Murderers would not become martyrs, they'd be labeled as idiots for giving up their life for something so stupid. Immediately following a "guilty" verdict, march them out back and stick a bullet in their brain. End of story and people would think twice before killing someone.

wrveres wrote:You sir are delusional. You do believe this crap.


Nah, it's called EXTREME RECYCLING!!!! :-b :-b :-b

Neato wants to recycle the murderer into a milkman and let the MURDERER deliver milk to his wife and kids.

Me? I'd rather recycle him into worm food.

Oh, while I'm at it:

Neato Torpedo wrote:I wouldn't expect you to understand a culture of love and understanding, which is so foreign to a culture around which swirls an undercurrent of tribal, animalistic bloodlust.


You do know that removing those who kill from society has nothing to do with bloodlust, right? If not, WR is right, you're totally insane and should check yourself into a mental facility immediatly. I think this idiot should be marched out back and shot in the head. Not because I want to see him die, not because I want to see the blood, not for revenge (hey, I don't know anyone he murdered, so it can't be personal), but simply because he took innocent lives and should give his in return for that, and he has proven he can not and will not be a functional, trusted member of society, EVER (if you think he can be "rehabilitated enough to ever be trusted again, I challenge you to go find a released murderer and let him live with you). It has nothing to do with bloodlust or any kind of "tribal animalistic" mentality. So it is money where our mouths are time. I am willing to pull the trigger on a convicted murderer, or flip the switch, or give the injection, or whatever method we want to use and I've said that many, many times over the years. Are you willing to let a murderer live with you and any family you might have? If you're an honest guy, you will admit that you would not let a convicted murderer live with you, at which point you admit that rehabilitation can not and will not work or change anything. Or you can lie. Your choice.
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby wrveres » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:07 am

Heres a video of Neato 10 years ago getting the 'ol brainwashing ..

I love the kid in the middle, "if they dont pay their taxes, we have to pay" ... ... oh the horror.
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby Curtis Pride » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:40 am

You pro death penalty crowd folks are always baffling to me. Do you ignore the numerous cases of wrongful death penalty convictions or just not care?

Feel free to look up the Corey Maye story if you think I am making it up.

"ohhh," but you say "Corey Maye wasn't actually executed, find me someone who actually gets executed that is proven innocent". Well, the only reason Corey Maye was finally released after a decade was because of all the hippie anti death penalty wackos you all hate fighting this for years and years. Had the court system had its way Maye would be dead, wrongfully. And Maye isn't alone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ex ... ted_States. Nearly 140 death row inmates have been exonerated in the US since 1970.

Do you really think that the justice system is 139-0 in catching their mistakes? That somehow exactly 139 people slipped through the cracks exactly 139 of them have been exonerated and no one has been wrongfully executed? Or are you cool with people getting executed for crimes they did not commit? Even if I were able to name names of people who were wrongfully, executed, would it make you consider that government (who, you, being conservative/libertarian/tea party/whatever likely feel is corrupt/inefficient) should maybe not be executing its citizens? Because executing someone (due to all the appeals) is also more expensive than having them sit in jail for their natural life.

Because if you really want me to name names of people who have been wrongfully executed: Jessie Tafero. Really, do you need more than one? Shouldn't one be enough? Cam Willingham. Wayne Felker. Here's an article (which I haven't fact checked), which says 8 people: http://nakedlaw.avvo.com/2010/05/8-peop ... -innocent/
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby bigh0rt » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:20 am

wrveres wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:I'm admittedly too lazy to read the last three pages of this in full,
thank god. i was waiting for you to put me on blast.

Hardly worth my time defending that teachers are not the reason our murder rate is so high, directly or indirectly. :-b I'll just let you hang onto that thought for as long as you like in peace.
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby urbanbreez » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:27 am

wrveres wrote:Heres a video of Neato 10 years ago getting the 'ol brainwashing ..

I love the kid in the middle, "if they dont pay their taxes, we have to pay" ... ... oh the horror.

So are you going to refuse to accept the social security check you're about to start receiving (you must be relatively closer to 65 than the rest of us with the exception of Madison) because I'm sick and tired of these right wing baby boomers complaining about government taxation while mentally smiling at the thought of a rake from my paycheck to help them sail through retirement. Must be nice, wish I could plan that into my 401k retirement plan but lets be honest, you're gonna eat it all up before I'm eligible. Like a swarm of locust complaining about the farmer that grew the corn you are devouring.
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