Neato Torpedo wrote:If we got laptops, big screens, grief counselors, and psychiatrists all for free, wouldn't it make sense to use them to make the U.S. prison system into an anti-recidivism system like Norway rather than a punishment system like we have now? Obviously this can never happen, but if we could, we should.
no.
Why
Rocinante2: you know Rocinante2: its easy to dismiss the orioles as a bad team ofanrex: go on Rocinante2: i'm done Rocinante2: lmao
Neato Torpedo wrote:If we got laptops, big screens, grief counselors, and psychiatrists all for free, wouldn't it make sense to use them to make the U.S. prison system into an anti-recidivism system like Norway rather than a punishment system like we have now? Obviously this can never happen, but if we could, we should.
no.
Why
Well, for one, if we're investing public resources into preparing people to be successful members of society, we start with those who have not raped/murdered/abused/stolen/etc. Why should we reward such things?
Well, for one, if we're investing public resources into preparing people to be successful members of society, we start with those who have not raped/murdered/abused/stolen/etc. Why should we reward such things?
Because punishing them makes them more likely to become criminals again. You have to ask yourself which is more important, making criminals feel like crap or turning them into productive citizens? I'd rather criminals feel like crap AND come out of prison ready to contribute to society, but you can't have both. Given the choice, I'd lean towards the productive citizen route.
Rocinante2: you know Rocinante2: its easy to dismiss the orioles as a bad team ofanrex: go on Rocinante2: i'm done Rocinante2: lmao
okay, i spent some time reading up on the Scandinavian prison systems, and its kind of interesting to say the least. At no point did i find anything that disproved my original point, that lack of education breeds crime. As a matter of fact once imprisoned, some of these prisons actually pay the prisoners to get an education.
First off. Using percentage of population in jail, and recidivism rates, are not the tools to be using here. The crimes rates remain unchanged. The Scandinavian system actually goes out of there way to avoid putting people in prison. They'll try everything from mediation between the victim and criminal, to lots and lots of probation with ankle monitoring, anything but prison. So those rates aren't a fair comparison.
Secondly, i agree with a number things that they do. Im not talking free laptops and big screens, but for softer crimes, probation, monitoring, and an "Education" is a system i could get behind.
All of these countries still run a prison somewhere not unlike the United States, but its used for the worst offenders. Since there populations are a tiny percentage of the US, they obviously have quite a bit less of the hardened types.
One report i read claimed Finland saved $200 million over 20 years. That's nothing really. That's 10 million a year, or the equivalent yearly budget of your local McDonald's franchisee. So they aren't really saving. Something else i found is that the State itself, often pays the victim too, and im guessing that's totally different line in the budget. Many of these "open society" prisons actually have a two to one guard to prisoner ratio, and everything is done electronically.
Another thing i found interesting, is that when a prisoner does get out of Jail, the state actually finds them a home and a job if needed, instead of letting them walk out the front door with a bus ticket. Again your dealing with a very small percentage of people here, which makes it relatively easy to manage.
Its different, i'll grant you that, and there are some things to be learned there, and many i could get behind. There are also many I could never get behind. Even after all these changes over the last 30 years, their crime rates remain the same. They are just handled very differently.
So again ... Education is the key. poor education breeds poverty. poverty breeds crime. Its the same in Scandinavia cities too.
wrveres wrote:okay, i spent some time reading up on the Scandinavian prison systems, and its kind of interesting to say the least. At no point did i find anything that disproved my original point, that lack of education breeds crime. As a matter of fact once imprisoned, some of these prisons actually pay the prisoners to get an education.
First off. Using percentage of population in jail, and recidivism rates, are not the tools to be using here. The crimes rates remain unchanged. The Scandinavian system actually goes out of there way to avoid putting people in prison. They'll try everything from mediation between the victim and criminal, to lots and lots of probation with ankle monitoring, anything but prison. So those rates aren't a fair comparison.
Secondly, i agree with a number things that they do. Im not talking free laptops and big screens, but for softer crimes, probation, monitoring, and an "Education" is a system i could get behind.
All of these countries still run a prison somewhere not unlike the United States, but its used for the worst offenders. Since there populations are a tiny percentage of the US, they obviously have quite a bit less of the hardened types.
One report i read claimed Finland saved $200 million over 20 years. That's nothing really. That's 10 million a year, or the equivalent yearly budget of your local McDonald's franchisee. So they aren't really saving. Something else i found is that the State itself, often pays the victim too, and im guessing that's totally different line in the budget. Many of these "open society" prisons actually have a two to one guard to prisoner ratio, and everything is done electronically.
Another thing i found interesting, is that when a prisoner does get out of Jail, the state actually finds them a home and a job if needed, instead of letting them walk out the front door with a bus ticket. Again your dealing with a very small percentage of people here, which makes it relatively easy to manage.
Its different, i'll grant you that, and there are some things to be learned there, and many i could get behind. There are also many I could never get behind. Even after all these changes over the last 30 years, their crime rates remain the same. They are just handled very differently.
So again ... Education is the key. poor education breeds poverty. poverty breeds crime. Its the same in Scandinavia cities too.
Glad to see you finally agreed.
The question started off in response to people's indignation to a sentence of only 21 years plus however long it takes for him to be ruled not dangerous. Like you said, the Yeah Government! system seems to work extremely well given the way Scandinavian countries run things. There's no reason to demand punishment or retribution if their prison system is designed to reform even the insanest of terrorists into respectable productive citizens. Gaining a productive citizen is a better outcome than not gaining one. And if they can't make a productive citizen out of him in 21 years, he stays in prison/mental hospital until he does, or until he dies.
Incidentally, this topic inspired me to finally get around to reading Soul on Ice, which I almost finished during my epic drive back to Illinois from Florida. Eldridge Cleaver's story reminds me of Tookie Williams, who I always contended should have been paroled into some probation program instead of, you know, executed. I mean, the man was nominated for a freakin' Nobel Peace Prize and we still executed him.
Last edited by Neato Torpedo on Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rocinante2: you know Rocinante2: its easy to dismiss the orioles as a bad team ofanrex: go on Rocinante2: i'm done Rocinante2: lmao
I'm admittedly too lazy to read the last three pages of this in full, but wrs, are you talking about a high school level education? College level education? They used to do the latter (in fact, my father taught college courses three nights a week at Green Haven Maximum Security Correctional Facility here in NY when I was younger) -- but then somebody said hey, they're getting for free what I paid $100,000 for -- which doesn't really seem to gel.
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by Neato Torpedo » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:08 am 
