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Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby Neato Torpedo » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:48 am

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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby urbanbreez » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:13 am

But Fox is king of the edit and you probably could feed your cat caviar with two th...

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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:18 am

This thread is all over the place. For once, I'm glad I didn't get involved in one of these discussions. I'm unequivocally opposed to capital punishment, yet I can understand that a reasonable person might reach a different conclusion than me and still not be on par with the Nazis. I'd like to see major changes to social security (and other programs), but I don't think everyone who might think differently than me is a Yeah Government type. And Madison's "are you willing to die for your country or are you just here for a free ride" question is the most ridiculous false dichotomy since, well, at least since Neato's "would you rather be violently raped by a 300 lb skinhead every day for 50 years or die tomorrow?". Also, urbanbreeze, bro, like...when did you become the most condescending person that posts here, dude?

This is the smartest post in this thread.
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby Dan Lambskin » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:06 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:This thread is all over the place. For once, I'm glad I didn't get involved in one of these discussions. I'm unequivocally opposed to capital punishment, yet I can understand that a reasonable person might reach a different conclusion than me and still not be on par with the Nazis. I'd like to see major changes to social security (and other programs), but I don't think everyone who might think differently than me is a Yeah Government type. And Madison's "are you willing to die for your country or are you just here for a free ride" question is the most ridiculous false dichotomy since, well, at least since Neato's "would you rather be violently raped by a 300 lb skinhead every day for 50 years or die tomorrow?". Also, urbanbreeze, bro, like...when did you become the most condescending person that posts here, dude?

This is the smartest post in this thread.


normally i would agree but this time i think the award goes to Artful Dodger
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby The Artful Dodger » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:49 pm

Dan Lambskin wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:This thread is all over the place. For once, I'm glad I didn't get involved in one of these discussions. I'm unequivocally opposed to capital punishment, yet I can understand that a reasonable person might reach a different conclusion than me and still not be on par with the Nazis. I'd like to see major changes to social security (and other programs), but I don't think everyone who might think differently than me is a Yeah Government type. And Madison's "are you willing to die for your country or are you just here for a free ride" question is the most ridiculous false dichotomy since, well, at least since Neato's "would you rather be violently raped by a 300 lb skinhead every day for 50 years or die tomorrow?". Also, urbanbreeze, bro, like...when did you become the most condescending person that posts here, dude?

This is the smartest post in this thread.


normally i would agree but this time i think the award goes to Artful Dodger


I've just opened this thread to see who won.
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby urbanbreez » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:08 pm

Dan Lambskin wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:This thread is all over the place. For once, I'm glad I didn't get involved in one of these discussions. I'm unequivocally opposed to capital punishment, yet I can understand that a reasonable person might reach a different conclusion than me and still not be on par with the Nazis. I'd like to see major changes to social security (and other programs), but I don't think everyone who might think differently than me is a Yeah Government type. And Madison's "are you willing to die for your country or are you just here for a free ride" question is the most ridiculous false dichotomy since, well, at least since Neato's "would you rather be violently raped by a 300 lb skinhead every day for 50 years or die tomorrow?". Also, urbanbreeze, bro, like...when did you become the most condescending person that posts here, dude?

This is the smartest post in this thread.


normally i would agree but this time i think the award goes to Artful Dodger

The smartest person in this thread is a backhand compliment because the participants have each lost 3 IQ points and experienced a .0003 reduction to their friendliness bar (I calculated) for participating in a political circle jerk ad nauseam.

There are approximately three things that get me riled up at the Cafe. In no particular order they are: Mafia (WaCoug :-b ), Adam Dunn %-6 and political discussions with Werves and Madison. I actually like these guys under other circumstances. So I ask Myself... Self, do you really think after reading my post one of them will look up in awe and experience epiphany? Do they think I will?

I used to have these same discussions with my jackhole father in-law (jackhole for other reasons, not just my thoughts on his political perspective). He would tear a turkey leg and start to quote Bill O'Reilly and whine about government hand-outs with carefully selected biblical text during Christmas dinner. Meanwhile, I knew he received unemployment for the max term and was on schedule to collect SS benefits. He was a supreme troll and I suspect he got much enjoyment out of causing a ruckus as the center of attention. One day I stopped to look up and noticed his face was that of a troll and I was feeding him more than his turkey leg. I stopped responding. Nobody else cared to respond. His :-C confirmed success of my reverse troll.

Knowing that, I should restrain myself and lurk more.
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby The Artful Dodger » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:55 am

I'm not sure why I'll throw my two cents in, but I suppose this thread just beckoned me to say something because I do have a great affinity for how Norway is governed and for Norwegian society in general. That doesn't necessarily mean I believe what's right for Norway should apply to America, but personally, I find it a bit of fun to compare and contrast America, Europe, and whatever place I happen to visit to each other, down to the nagging little details.

Anyhow, I was brave enough to skim through this thread and here's a few thoughts.

Someone mentioned that crime is a byproduct of poverty and a poor education (I believe WR said that, IIRC)... I think that's symptomatic to a bigger overall issue and that would be social class. Take for example, the recent riots in the UK, London in particular. I've been to London many times over the years, surely more times than I can count on my hands and feet... and each time I've visited in the last 10-15 years, I've been astounded as to the rate of gentrification in neighborhoods that have been generally known to be bad, poor, dangerous areas. Shoreditch used to be a relatively dodgy place, but that has changed now especially with the slew of tech startups that call Shoreditch home, particularly down Old Street now known as "Silicon Roundabout". It's now become a fairly trendy part of town, with its upscale clubs, pubs, music venues, restaurants, and so on. Shoreditch isn't the only place to gentrify, and that has carried into some districts of South London, infamous for gangs and disenchanted youths. It's become something of a socioeconomic cleansing, for lack of a better term. Those "underclass" families have been priced out by upscale housing and an equally upmarket clientele in the only places of London they could afford to live in. To make matters worse, those rioters weren't/aren't likely to move up the socioeconomic ladder in the first place, as they don't have the access to the same resources nor the same opportunities offered to them that middle class/upper class do... namely an inequality in the quality of education. If this sounds like I'm being sympathetic about the rioters' actions, I'm not. Their actions can't be condoned. No, I'm not discrediting the positives of a meritocratic society nor progress, but such gentrification doesn't necessarily improve the quality of life for those "underclass" people... and that just enhances their subconscious feeling of disenfranchisement from society.

I've digressed some, but anyhow, the US has the same kind of social class problem that the UK has. Americans generally aren't class-conscious because of the belief and the ideal that anyone has the opportunity to move up the proverbial ladder, but the class issues do persist. Mobility is easier said than done and lost in the success stories, there's plenty of families who for whatever reason can't move up the ladder. The emerging problem now, is there's an inequality in education between public and private schools and even amongst private schools. They say education is the great equalizer in such a meritocracy, but becomes less so when kids in one school are learning more and/or enjoying more enriching academic experiences than peers in another school. That leads to working class people and disenfranchised being forced to settle or worse, caving into crime.

How this applies to Norway, well, Norway doesn't have as stratified of a society as the US, UK, or in other countries for that matter. There's a greater sociocultural effort to achieving egalitarianism to the extreme, such that there isn't a gratuitously rich upper class nor are they too many poor folks lining down skid row. The cost of living is high, but that's offset by the high salaries and a proactive government that provides a slew of excellent social services. Benefits like a very generous maternity/family leave, an excellent healthcare system (Norway has one of the highest average life expectancies in the world), a commitment to environmental protection, an education system that isn't just standardized but also one where one can earn a quality education for relatively cheap in the rural areas, every bit as good as in Oslo. It all sounds like austere socialism at its worst, but I think the Norwegians' practicality knows no bounds to the point they don't mind saving a little or spending a little for the benefits. On paper, it seems like this commitment to keeping society level is the big reason why crime, let alone homicides, are relatively low. FWIW, Norway has one of the highest gun ownership rates in Europe, a far cry from Switzerland (where military conscription is mandatory), which makes it all the more impressive.

I suppose Norway being a small country population-wise helps as to why crime is low. Then again, Japan has a far greater population density and they sport an extremely low crime rate. There's more to low crime rates than just the population size being relatively small.

Going back about Norway's prison system and lack of capital punishment... Well, the way the prisons are run is surely contrarian to that of many countries, but it's quite obvious that their commitment to not dehumanizing prisoners has gotten results. That's nigh on impossible in doing anywhere else, however, because the culture is cemented such that criminals will act out as criminals since that's the way society expects them to behave. In the case of this lunatic who had gone on his shooting spree, his case is an extremely rare one in which a maximum sentence is likely not to reform him enough to be a free man. Whatever the case, as someone who's also unconditionally against the death penalty, I find it admirable that the Norwegians won't be so quick to execute him... and more so in the Norwegian spirit of rehabilitating prisoners. Just my opinion of course, but I find that forgiveness is more powerful than anger begetting anger, hate begetting hate, far above what the human condition and expectation dictates.
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby wrveres » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:00 am

Curious Ray.
Ive read quite a bit about Norway over the last few days, as you can imagine. You said you have been to Norway, and i was curious as to your experience with the level of crime in Olso. Most of the stats says that Olso has a crime rate on par with New York City. From reading other people accounts it appears many of the crimes are property crimes, so i guess i just wanted to know your experiences in Olso, if any?
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby wrveres » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:18 am

urbanbreez wrote:I never said "yeah government" and never will, tyvm. Straw man argument, Dude.

You dont preach the socialism? My apologies. I was under the impression you were a proud socialist.

Now your not so proud, or did i just misread you?
Curious.
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Re: Norway's One Man Wrecking Crew

Postby WyldStallyn » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:46 am

The Artful Dodger wrote:I've digressed some, but anyhow, the US has the same kind of social class problem that the UK has. Americans generally aren't class-conscious because of the belief and the ideal that anyone has the opportunity to move up the proverbial ladder, but the class issues do persist. Mobility is easier said than done and lost in the success stories, there's plenty of families who for whatever reason can't move up the ladder. The emerging problem now, is there's an inequality in education between public and private schools and even amongst private schools. They say education is the great equalizer in such a meritocracy, but becomes less so when kids in one school are learning more and/or enjoying more enriching academic experiences than peers in another school. That leads to working class people and disenfranchised being forced to settle or worse, caving into crime.


I have studied this issue in the past, and the idea of "anyone can succeed in America" is more of a myth than reality. Of course it is possible to rise to something from nothing, but it happens far less often here than in other nations.

Children from low-income families have only a 1 percent chance of reaching the top 5 percent of the income distribution, versus children of the rich who have about a 22 percent chance.

Children born to the middle quintile of parental family income ($42,000 to $54,300) had about the same chance of ending up in a lower quintile than their parents (39.5 percent) as they did of moving to a higher quintile (36.5 percent). Their chances of attaining the top five percentiles of the income distribution were just 1.8 percent.

Education, race, health and state of residence are four key channels by which economic status is transmitted from parent to child.

African American children who are born in the bottom quartile are nearly twice as likely to remain there as adults than are white children whose parents had identical incomes, and are four times less likely to attain the top quartile.

By international standards, the United States has an unusually low level of intergenerational mobility: our parents’ income is highly predictive of our incomes as adults. Intergenerational mobility in the United States is lower than in France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Norway and Denmark. Among high-income countries for which comparable estimates are available, only the United Kingdom had a lower rate of mobility than the United States.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/ ... 79981.html
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