A Fleshner Fantasy wrote:Maybe Ellsbury was put in an extremely difficult situation to foster wins, but he still didn't do it, Verlander did. There are some players that have that air of confidence behind them, and I think Verlander is one of them. The rest of the team rose to the occasion when he pitched. He wasn't out there hitting, but the Tigers were a much more confident team when JV took the mound. Ellsbury being in the lineup didn't do anything for his teammates. That's probably not Ellsbury's fault, but it still increases Verlander's value, while it doesn't increase Ellsbury. This isn't about blaming Ellsbury for the Red Sox failures. You're right, it's not his fault at all, because the 2nd or 3rd or 4th most valuable player in the league is never going to be at fault for his team not making the playoffs. The reason for the Red Sox failing was not poor play by Ellsbury. That said, his contribution to the Red Sox was slightly less than JV's to the TIgers, so JV should win the award.
This is the "Most Valuable Player" award, not "Best Player from a Playoff Team" award. Ellsbury did the most to increase his team's chances of winning, therefore he was the most valuable. The problem is that Lackey, Lester, Beckett, Ortiz, Crawford, Bedard, Lowrie, etc combined to do the most to decrease their team's chances of winning.
Rocinante2: you know Rocinante2: its easy to dismiss the orioles as a bad team ofanrex: go on Rocinante2: i'm done Rocinante2: lmao
Skin Blues wrote:I think Adam Dunn should be MVP. He makes his entire team seem so much better, like an ugly chick in a crowd of mediocre women. That's invaluable to the morale of a team, and something clearly not displayed by Verlander or Ellsbury.
There's a reason I ignore all this guy's posts...
Neato, you bring up some good points. I think at this point, we're beating our heads against a wall having the same argument over and over again, plus I have 2 exams to study for tomorrow. Hopefully Skin's internet dies soon though, for the sake of this board.
Neato Torpedo wrote:This is the "Most Valuable Player" award, not "Best Player from a Playoff Team" award. Ellsbury did the most to increase his team's chances of winning, therefore he was the most valuable. The problem is that Lackey, Lester, Beckett, Ortiz, Crawford, Bedard, Lowrie, etc combined to do the most to decrease their team's chances of winning.
Have to agree here, and the majority of which Neato has posted too (as well as GiantsFan's post).
Despite Ellsbury being outstanding over the last month (best month of all the MVP contenders I think), I still think he won't win. Had Dustin and Gonzalez not both posted respectable Septembers, then Ellsbury probably would have won the MVP. But since Dustin and Gonzo did well, I still see Ellsbury losing some votes to the both of them. Ellsbury, Dustin, Gonzo, Granderson, Verlander, Bautista, Cano, and Miggy (though I wouldn't vote for him, but won't rehash this) should all finish in the top 10. I still think Bautista should take the award though. For me, he was the clear MVP of his team (next to Mike Young), but who had elite stats as well.
I still hate how Mike Young won't get any love from the voters. Even though he may have been the most valuable guy on Texas this year. Not the best stats of the MVP type guys, but darn good. Excellent leadership skills, ability to hit in multiple spots, his willingness to change his position at his manager's will, and his general attitude towards the club (despite trade rumors throughout the season) make him the guy I would vote for.
Urban Cohorts wrote:Excellent leadership skills, ..., his willingness to change his position at his manager's will, and his general attitude towards the club
How excellent are his leadership skills? Is he super duper excellent? Is he just a really good leader...is he just slightly above average? If he is a super duper excellent leader...how much is that worth to the team? Is that worth the same as a guy hitting 30hr on the year? How much is being a super duper excellent leader compared to someone who is just a really good leader? How do you weigh this?
Same questions for all the other non-baseball specific "skills"/"characteristics". Not only this but who even really knows if a player is a super duper excellent leader? Because the media tells us?...because he seems like a super duper excellent leader when doing interviews?
Anyway, not saying M Young(or any player) isn't a great guy or not a great leader just asking the questions. How do we know? How do we know he's more a leader than another guy? How much is that leadership worth over an average guy? How much is it worth compared to a guy who's not a great leader but can hit .330 with 40hr?
IMHO, these questions really can't be answered and can't be quantified or weighed against anything and if that is the case they really shouldn't even be brought up in a discussion for MVP, IMHO.
J35J wrote:How excellent are his leadership skills? Is he super duper excellent? Is he just a really good leader...is he just slightly above average? If he is a super duper excellent leader...how much is that worth to the team? Is that worth the same as a guy hitting 30hr on the year? How much is being a super duper excellent leader compared to someone who is just a really good leader? How do you weigh this?
Same questions for all the other non-baseball specific "skills"/"characteristics". Not only this but who even really knows if a player is a super duper excellent leader? Because the media tells us?...because he seems like a super duper excellent leader when doing interviews?
Well, yes. You do have to rely on what the media televises, what they write, and how he reacts in post-game interviews. More importantly, what his teammates attitudes are towards him. Both the fans and the media don't know what goes on in the clubhouse 100% of the time. But according to almost everyone on the Rangers, Michael Young is the team leader and a great role model as to how the game should be played. And these comments don't come from the stats he produces- they come from his work ethic and dedication to both the team and franchise. Dustin is the only other player I have read similar comparisons too.
J35J wrote:Anyway, not saying M Young(or any player) isn't a great guy or not a great leader just asking the questions. How do we know? How do we know he's more a leader than another guy? How much is that leadership worth over an average guy? How much is it worth compared to a guy who's not a great leader but can hit .330 with 40hr?
Yes, it is not something you can quantify. However, Young did have a hell of a season. He led the league in hits, finished second in AVG, and fifth in RBI. He also did well in most other categories. Not elite, but a very good season.
An overlooked plus is in his ability to play multiple positions and that should be taken into account. Every single other player mentioned in the MVP talk plays only 1 position. Young played several different positions which allowed the Rangers to give normal starters at those positions days off and get productive bats into the lineup who otherwise would not have been there. So when injury prone guys (Kinsler, Cruz, Hamilton, Beltre) needed days off/time at DH, Young wasn't pigeon holed as a 1 position player- he could fill the need wherever it was. So not only did Young produce his stats when he wasn't at DH, but allowed those other semi-injured guys to produce stats at DH. If Young couldn't play so many positions, either some of his AB would have gone down or the other good players (Kinsler, Cruz, Hamilton, Beltre) AB would have been replaced by someone not so great.
To me, both of these things are very valuable. And IMHO Michael Young was the clear MVP for the Texas Rangers. This can't be said about many of the other guys being mentioned on this thread (with perhaps the exception of Bautista).
Verlander/Miggy, Dustin/Ells/Gonzo, Granderson/Cano/Tex. Those are all MVP candidates right there who each provided tremendous value to their team. Bautista did it alone, and to a lesser extent, so did Young.
Nobody's talking about Mike Napoli. Like, he shouldn't be considered for MVP or anything, but he had the highest wOBA in the league and hit 30 HR in only 113 games. From catcher half the time.
Rocinante2: you know Rocinante2: its easy to dismiss the orioles as a bad team ofanrex: go on Rocinante2: i'm done Rocinante2: lmao
This article is amusing for many reasons, but what's notable to this recent discussion is that Jacoby Ellsbury isn't a "leader" of the Red Sox and his interaction in the clubhouse was supposedly limited mostly to Jed Lowrie.
there are always a lot of fancy numbers thrown around. but this is not just an award based on numbers alone, or MLB could use a computer to determine the winner.
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by Neato Torpedo » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:07 pm 
