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Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby bigh0rt » Wed May 18, 2011 10:46 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:I haven't read past the first page, so before I spend a lot of time on a reply can someone tell me if anyone's mentioned that 20-somethings shouldn't be living with their parents and that college is overrated?

Also, OP should just do what I recently did: find a job that pays more money and offers better benefits.
bigh0rt wrote:
Dan Lambskin wrote:what's the score?

Art Vandalay won on Page 2, like he always does.
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby Art Vandelay » Wed May 18, 2011 11:01 pm

Well...I guess I should have read to page two.
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby Madison » Wed May 18, 2011 11:51 pm

The Artful Dodger wrote:You listed one type of job that can be certified (no degree) and I'll toss in another quality assurance (QA) certification.

For most jobs, a college degree is still a gateway degree. In a lot of cases, it doesn't matter what you study but the fact you have a degree which makes all the difference. One of my best friends and former colleagues graduated with a political science degree, but since he graduated, he's been a software engineer since then.


I don't disagree that having a degree is beneficial, we just disagree on "how" beneficial it really is.

Except that the college experience is quite a different beast from school. Yes, you get bored in college from time to time, and who doesn't. However, you're also going some ways in not just acquiring/improving abilities and skills, but also improving as a person. There's important life skills to be acquired in work, no question. That shouldn't take away from life skills learned in college anyway.

I'm not likely to change your tune about college and that's fine, I don't mean to. I would say I was actually as skeptical about school and college as you, in that I knew I was better off learning things on my own. However, I saw value and merit in staying in school, going to college too. So, when it comes down to it, I would endorse most teenagers to attend college. It's a boring, conventional route, but in general, it's usually the best route for them to take.


What exactly is improving as a person and life skills that are learned only at college? :-?

No worries, if my opinion on college was going to change, it would have done so by now. I don't really have a bunch of negativity about college, I just didn't/don't see the need to attend classes and waste another 4 years of my life when the "payoff" really isn't anything. In hindsight, I doubt a degree would have affected me at all. I likely wouldn't have an ex-wife since I wouldn't have gotten married while attending college, but that has nothing to do with a degree. :-b

As an employer, I would pay more attention to someone who has built something impressive, actually. A college degree is still a consideration for me, more so than a trade school. I've addressed this a few pages back and I said it depends on the field and expertise I'd need. A video compression specialist and I'm likely looking for a well experienced specialist, with perhaps postgraduate work in studying the science of compression.


I always hired the person I thought could learn and do the best job. I'd rather have a younger employee that knows the material (trade school, self taught, etc) over an older employee that knows the same material (degree).

...and what I'm saying is those people who launch and operate successful businesses are a rarer find than you think.


I disagree, but I have yet to have you answer the question of what is "successful" in your mind. If you're talking billionaires, then sure, you would be correct. If you are talking about people making 6 to 7 figures and living a pretty good life, then you're off on this one.

Obviously, Facebook and Twitter fill a market need. Hence, they are valuable.


Temporarily.

Again, why are we insisting generalization as truth? I can likewise say that most kids I've met are responsible and mature, not self-entitled. Thusly, most teenagers and young adults are responsible and mature. That's not entirely true, but I just find it an annoyance as to why people and the media label Generation Y as self-entitled because of their youth.


Google "Entitlement Era" and see for yourself what is going on. I swear I read the words "Entitlement Era" in at least a handful of articles every week. It isn't just me and I didn't coin the phrase.

Of course not, but your chances of meeting successful people or someone who will be of help in the long run are greater in college than through say, family and friends.


Meh, hard for either of us to argue this one, but if you have plenty of contacts and make a big enough splash, you'd be surprised how many people you can meet without college.

The employer does care if you have a degree. It's the most likely determinant for entry-level grads to even make the first round of interviews, for instance. Then of course, they're later screened on other criteria.


Again, depends on the job. If the employer is dead set on hiring someone who has a degree, then you would be correct.

bigh0rt wrote:
Madison wrote:When everyone has the same degree, the employer doesn't care. ;-) If you can distinguish yourself in that situation, you didn't need college to begin with and you'd get the job either way (in most fields).

This is simply untrue. The market for jobs where a bachelors degree is a requirement is vast, and if you don't have one, you won't even be looked at; your resume will simply be discarded. It's for the reasons Ray has listed a few times now. Completing a 120 credit bachelors program does illustrate a degree of persistence, and ability. I know you've stated a few times that you would've slept your way through college, but that likely isn't true (I say this having almost no knowledge of your ability). Having not gone, I'm sure there's a picture of debauchery and reckless abandon partying in your mind; which certainly exists. However, there's also an abundance of work to be done if you wish to do anything other than skate by. All nighters cramming for mid-terms and final exams, labs, research, and the like. The degree is the culmination of all of that. Something like 50% of students who begin college never earn a degree, so your continued devaluing of its relevance I really just don't see. The only devaluing that's happening is that more people are getting them; and they're getting them mainly because they want to have a nice career and they know the best way there is through getting a degree. Are there other ways? Of course. But college remains the easiest way to get ones foot into the door of the vast majority of non-manual laborious careers that this country has to offer.


Honestly yes, I'd have slept through at least 2 years of college. If memory serves, I've got (had?) 7 or 8 classes I'd never have had to take but would have received the college credit for, just from my high school classes and additional learning. On top of those 7 or 8, I have no idea how many additional classes I could have "tested out" on. So I don't doubt that my first 2 years of college would have been a 100% waste of time (other than sports).

Actually the "debauchery and reckless abandon partying" is a plus in my mind for college. It's living on a bell schedule, learning squat, and wasting those 4 years that I had issue with, and ultimately why I didn't go. I figured at most in 4 years I'd be lucky if I had a total of 2 interesting classes (besides sports). 4 years of my life just wasn't worth that when the "ultimate prize" at the end of the tunnel isn't any big deal.

Like I have said, college degrees aren't worthless, but they are still overvalued. The ROI (Return On Investment) keeps getting worse though as college tuition keeps rising and employers realize they can get younger and better trained employees faster that require less salary (no college loans to pay off). You guys act like I'm saying college is totally worthless, when I'm simply saying the value isn't what some people wish it was. I don't like gold at $1,500 per ounce, I think it's currently overvalued. Does that mean I think gold is worthless though? Of course not.
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby The Artful Dodger » Thu May 19, 2011 1:10 am

Madison wrote:What exactly is improving as a person and life skills that are learned only at college? :-?


I never said those life skills were exclusive to learning in college. You tend to think the life skills are best acquired in the working world, but that's just one way. College is another source towards building those skills and character.

Madison wrote:I always hired the person I thought could learn and do the best job. I'd rather have a younger employee that knows the material (trade school, self taught, etc) over an older employee that knows the same material (degree).


Absolutely, that's what it boils down to. You hire the person you feel can do the best job and is the best fit. Just what that is, depends on a case by case basis.

Madison wrote:
...and what I'm saying is those people who launch and operate successful businesses are a rarer find than you think.


I disagree, but I have yet to have you answer the question of what is "successful" in your mind. If you're talking billionaires, then sure, you would be correct. If you are talking about people making 6 to 7 figures and living a pretty good life, then you're off on this one.


Even those who make 6 to 7 figures and bypassed college are hard to find. They're not as rare as say the billionaire, but still they're the exception to the rule. For those people, going to college wasn't likely what was best for them because perhaps that would just limit their upside and/or they have the skills to go for it right now than later. Not a lot of college bound students can afford to take that chance for lack of skills, upside, resources, and/or opportunity. There's a very good chance of those kids getting some combination of those four factors in college.

Madison wrote:
Obviously, Facebook and Twitter fill a market need. Hence, they are valuable.


Temporarily.


I don't want this thread to go on another tangent, but short answer is I don't see Facebook and Twitter going the way of say, AOL and Myspace. There's still some untapped upside and value to be had with Facebook, Twitter, or the next great communication medium to come thereafter.

This is a subject for another thread.

Madison wrote:
Again, why are we insisting generalization as truth? I can likewise say that most kids I've met are responsible and mature, not self-entitled. Thusly, most teenagers and young adults are responsible and mature. That's not entirely true, but I just find it an annoyance as to why people and the media label Generation Y as self-entitled because of their youth.


Google "Entitlement Era" and see for yourself what is going on. I swear I read the words "Entitlement Era" in at least a handful of articles every week. It isn't just me and I didn't coin the phrase.


I'm sure you didn't come up with the term. However, it's easy to justify a personal opinion by seeking out other opinions like yours. Besides, those articles aren't entirely accurate nor are they devoid of bias or an agenda.

While I do find the "entitlement" tag annoying for Generation Y, that doesn't pale in comparison to some of the stereotypes some generations were/are subject to. For example, a significant portion of parents of Gen Y'ers tended to have frayed relationships with their parents for whatever reason. They overcompensate that by paying as much attention to their Gen Y kids to a fault, some perhaps even living vicariously through their kids. Hence, the entitlement problem, which isn't endemic to the kids themselves.

Madison wrote:
Of course not, but your chances of meeting successful people or someone who will be of help in the long run are greater in college than through say, family and friends.


Meh, hard for either of us to argue this one, but if you have plenty of contacts and make a big enough splash, you'd be surprised how many people you can meet without college.


That's a big if for a lot of people.

Madison wrote:Like I have said, college degrees aren't worthless, but they are still overvalued. The ROI (Return On Investment) keeps getting worse though as college tuition keeps rising and employers realize they can get younger and better trained employees faster that require less salary (no college loans to pay off). You guys act like I'm saying college is totally worthless, when I'm simply saying the value isn't what some people wish it was. I don't like gold at $1,500 per ounce, I think it's currently overvalued. Does that mean I think gold is worthless though? Of course not.


No question, a college degree is devalued. However, what I don't think you understand is it's still the educational standard or requirement a lot of employers consider. Having just a high school degree is even more devalued, as a result. You're saying it's overvalued, so don't get one. What I'm saying is it's overvalued, but that shouldn't stop you from earning one and if anything, it should encourage you to get one (too much competition, must stay with them).

Also, you're overlooking the cost of training employees, both in time and money spent. It's expensive enough just to seek and hire new employees. Hiring college grads goes in some way in reducing those training costs, especially when those grads are working in a field they're familiar from their studies/past work experience. All they need is the specifics to find their footing, but they're hardwired (for lack of a better term) to understand the fundamental things because of what they learned in school. You're acting as if it's easy to take 18 year-olds with work experience, much of it might not even be relevant to the task at hand, and mold them into potential star employees. In addition, they might not be as naturally talented as those coming out of college.

As far as salary goes, well, companies might get away with making the most of talent for the cheap in the short term. Once those people realize what they're worth, they'll push for higher compensation sooner than later. Those cost savings really don't wind up lasting too long.
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby The Artful Dodger » Thu May 19, 2011 1:30 am

I forgot to mention something else... and that's in reference to trade schools and/or certification programs.

The disadvantage with a trade school education and certification program is simply that they're more likely to be considered second-best to traditional four-year college grads. The reality is, most employers view college education as a brand, in the sense that the name offers some kind of security as to the pedigree of the candidate, namely the educational background. So, someone who graduated from UCLA already has an upper hand over an LA Trade Tech College graduate, from just the name itself.

Hiring a trade school graduate for cheaper than a bachelor degree holder could actually wind up being more expensive for an employer, in the long term. If indeed the training doesn't quite pan out and the employee doesn't perform to expectation, odds are they'll get the sack and they'll be replaced by someone who will get higher pay to assure the job gets done. The training costs, the hiring process costs, and any direct business related costs involved would be a turn-off to training inexpensive talent now than hiring a college talent, in the security that said college candidate can perform to standard.
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby buffalobillsrul2002 » Thu May 19, 2011 2:18 am

I have a bunch of related thoughts here:

1. The "self-entitlement" tag thrown on Generation Y is very annoying. Maybe I'm missing what "self-entitlement" is, but I feel like there's absolutely nothing wrong with attempting to give yourself the best possible life you can, and not quitting on that goal immediately. If one quits at the first hurdle, they will never accomplish their dreams. We could probably do without the whining/excuses part and should instead work a little harder to solve our problems. But I'm not sure just giving up on your/goals dreams is a path to life success either. I also would say that most in this generation don't consider just scraping by through life success; we want a bit more than that.

2. Going back to the "independence" point, I don't think there's any reason that people really should ever try to become completely independent; what we should look for, rather, is the ability to be independent. For instance, right now I'm having my parents pay off my school loans by taking out their own loan, and then I'll pay them back so that they can pay the loan back. Why? Well, for me, my parents get a lower interest rate than what I can. For my parents, they can then add that to their "debt", so they can put my siblings through school for cheaper. They also can write that debt off on their taxes. So it's actually a win/win for both of us if they pay back my student loans and then I pay them back. Similarly, I'm having my friends buy all my stuff (that I'll pick out) for my apartment when I move in next month (TV, bed, etc.). Why? Well, a bunch of friends work at various retailers, so they get good discounts on the items. Plus, they all do much more shopping at their stores than I and rack up loyalty points and such. So they win, and I win. I'm not sure why it's a bad idea to have win/win relationships with parents, or anyone else for that matter.

3. The college diploma may be devalued, since everyone (or it seems everyone) has one, in terms of the monetary value gained. I think the reason for this is the attitude that has come from college graduates in the past ten years, which is that they aren't there to learn, but are there rather just to buy the piece of paper (and pad their resume) so that they can get a job. This means that kids aren't getting the college experience out of college. The college experience rarely comes from information gained from classes directly (though it can, but I'd say I skipped 30% of my classes in college, and that I remember nothing from like 80% of my classes). Sadly, it's difficult to find out which kids have actually gained the ability to learn in college (and some employers are terrible at figuring this out....).

As a student who recently graduated from an extremely expensive private college (luckily I won't be footing the entire bill), I would say that there are two things that made college worthwhile. The first is that college provides a good step-by-step "learning program" for students, that is otherwise hard to find. The "learning program" hones a student's skills in the area of learning. It's possible to find this outside of college, but I think it's extremely difficult to find it on your own. The more valuable thing that college gives you is the ability to spend time and interact with incredibly bright people. I learned 100 times as much from my friends, fellow classmates, professors, etc. about life and whatever just from being on a college campus as I did from sitting in the college classroom. College isn't really about attending class and grinding out a degree (though this does show the ability to advance through a step-by-step learning program, which is what colleges are looking for). The college classes aren't worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. The four years spent on the campus is....
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby AussieDodger » Thu May 19, 2011 2:32 am

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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby Lofunzo » Thu May 19, 2011 9:41 am

Going back to the "independence" point, I don't think there's any reason that people really should ever try to become completely independent; what we should look for, rather, is the ability to be independent. For instance, right now I'm having my parents pay off my school loans by taking out their own loan, and then I'll pay them back so that they can pay the loan back. Why? Well, for me, my parents get a lower interest rate than what I can. For my parents, they can then add that to their "debt", so they can put my siblings through school for cheaper. They also can write that debt off on their taxes. So it's actually a win/win for both of us if they pay back my student loans and then I pay them back. Similarly, I'm having my friends buy all my stuff (that I'll pick out) for my apartment when I move in next month (TV, bed, etc.). Why? Well, a bunch of friends work at various retailers, so they get good discounts on the items. Plus, they all do much more shopping at their stores than I and rack up loyalty points and such. So they win, and I win. I'm not sure why it's a bad idea to have win/win relationships with parents, or anyone else for that matter.


I would never say to avoid doing those things. My point is that, if you do those things, you can't have a parade proclaiming how independent you are.
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby bigh0rt » Thu May 19, 2011 10:42 am

Lofunzo wrote:
Going back to the "independence" point, I don't think there's any reason that people really should ever try to become completely independent; what we should look for, rather, is the ability to be independent. For instance, right now I'm having my parents pay off my school loans by taking out their own loan, and then I'll pay them back so that they can pay the loan back. Why? Well, for me, my parents get a lower interest rate than what I can. For my parents, they can then add that to their "debt", so they can put my siblings through school for cheaper. They also can write that debt off on their taxes. So it's actually a win/win for both of us if they pay back my student loans and then I pay them back. Similarly, I'm having my friends buy all my stuff (that I'll pick out) for my apartment when I move in next month (TV, bed, etc.). Why? Well, a bunch of friends work at various retailers, so they get good discounts on the items. Plus, they all do much more shopping at their stores than I and rack up loyalty points and such. So they win, and I win. I'm not sure why it's a bad idea to have win/win relationships with parents, or anyone else for that matter.


I would never say to avoid doing those things. My point is that, if you do those things, you can't have a parade proclaiming how independent you are.

I asked this openly a few pages ago before the whole college tangent, but I'm interested in your take on it. Let's say, given the cellular phone example we've given, that instead of hopping on my parents' plan and paying them, that they hop on my plan and pay me. Everything about the plan is identical, except I'm the primary line, with the billing address, and they cut me a check every month instead of me to them. Does that change anything, and if so/not, how come? Are they no longer independent, because I'm saving them a few bucks (we're actually saving each other a few bucks mutually, but that's what we'd be doing regardless of whose name the bill was under).

The car insurance would be a different animal, because your rates are determined partially on years of safe driving, whereas the cellular bill is a flat rate no matter who you are.
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby lastingsgriller » Thu May 19, 2011 11:12 am

so.. do we think the OP has gotten his question answered yet? or should we keep trying to get to the bottom of this?
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