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Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby KCollins1304 » Sat May 21, 2011 8:29 am

Madison wrote:Actually went back in my history, here's the article, and the direct quotes I mentioned:

"I thought getting a job would be a snap," she said.


Different girl:

"When you go to an Ivy League school, you figure this degree will mean something -- that it will guarantee you a job," she said.


http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/112754/recession-lost-generation-cnnmoney



I would say that is a lot the product of the recession that we're in than the futility of their degree. I've been out of school for 3 years and I'm still not making what I had envisioned I would make right out of school. Though I do know that I wouldn't have been able to get either of the 2 jobs that I've had without a degree. (I have a BS in Chemistry and have worked in a lab testing drinking water and waste water for metals and other inorganics, and my latest job I just started a few months ago is testing building materials for asbestos and paint, toys, water, etc for lead)
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby Grounded Polo » Sat May 21, 2011 10:35 am

KCollins1304 wrote:I would say that is a lot the product of the recession that we're in than the futility of their degree. I've been out of school for 3 years and I'm still not making what I had envisioned I would make right out of school. Though I do know that I wouldn't have been able to get either of the 2 jobs that I've had without a degree. (I have a BS in Chemistry and have worked in a lab testing drinking water and waste water for metals and other inorganics, and my latest job I just started a few months ago is testing building materials for asbestos and paint, toys, water, etc for lead)


Have you considered grad school? It's worthwhile for science majors since they normally pay you to go, not like you're an english major getting a master's in english or hiding out in law school.

I got lucky myself, finished school in '07, basically bounced around for a bit between temp roles, volunteering, and posting a ton on here before I got my first real job through connections, at least half of the entry level types got theirs through knowing someone and anyone above that entry level role are practically hired almost exclusively from networking, probably 80% or more.
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby Madison » Sat May 21, 2011 10:38 am

KCollins1304 wrote:
Madison wrote:Actually went back in my history, here's the article, and the direct quotes I mentioned:

"I thought getting a job would be a snap," she said.


Different girl:

"When you go to an Ivy League school, you figure this degree will mean something -- that it will guarantee you a job," she said.


http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/112754/recession-lost-generation-cnnmoney



I would say that is a lot the product of the recession that we're in than the futility of their degree. I've been out of school for 3 years and I'm still not making what I had envisioned I would make right out of school. Though I do know that I wouldn't have been able to get either of the 2 jobs that I've had without a degree. (I have a BS in Chemistry and have worked in a lab testing drinking water and waste water for metals and other inorganics, and my latest job I just started a few months ago is testing building materials for asbestos and paint, toys, water, etc for lead)


What I've said all the way through is that people should take a real look at the whole thing. There is no guaranteed job after a degree, no guaranteed salary of "X", no nothing. Far, far too many people go to college, spend the time and effort, shell out tens of thousands of dollars, and expect there to be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, when that isn't the case at all. Recession or no recession, really doesn't make a difference. I'll stipulate that due to the recession, a larger percentage are now realizing there's no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (and mistakenly blaming the recession for it), but it was happening long before the recession even started.

And while you said you wouldn't have gotten your jobs without a degree, you also admitted you're not making what you envisioned. So yes, the field you wanted to go into required a degree, but you overestimated the pay, which is in part why I'm suggesting people really think about the real world before going to college. A lot of people base their student loans and things on what they *think* they will earn after graduation, but they fail to take into consideration the fact that they might not make what they think they will, or they might not even be able to land a job in the first place. Either way, they find themselves with a very large financial hardship, and all because they didn't really think it through. So I'm simply saying people should think the decision through in reality prior to deciding if college is worth it or not.
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby KCollins1304 » Sat May 21, 2011 11:04 am

Grounded Polo wrote:
KCollins1304 wrote:I would say that is a lot the product of the recession that we're in than the futility of their degree. I've been out of school for 3 years and I'm still not making what I had envisioned I would make right out of school. Though I do know that I wouldn't have been able to get either of the 2 jobs that I've had without a degree. (I have a BS in Chemistry and have worked in a lab testing drinking water and waste water for metals and other inorganics, and my latest job I just started a few months ago is testing building materials for asbestos and paint, toys, water, etc for lead)


Have you considered grad school? It's worthwhile for science majors since they normally pay you to go, not like you're an english major getting a master's in english or hiding out in law school.

I got lucky myself, finished school in '07, basically bounced around for a bit between temp roles, volunteering, and posting a ton on here before I got my first real job through connections, at least half of the entry level types got theirs through knowing someone and anyone above that entry level role are practically hired almost exclusively from networking, probably 80% or more.


I have kicked around the idea of a Master's degree, but I was really burnt out on school by the time I graduated and prefer working to going to school at this point. It's nice to not having to worry about anything once you punch out for the day. I'm not making beans now and am approaching what I originally thought I'd make, I'm just 3 years behind my original plan. I can admit that I was a little naive about going to college when I was 18, thinking there would be a job waiting for me that would put me in a comfortable lifestyle once I graduated. Still knowing what I know, I'm still glad I got the degree because I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing without it. There's plenty of room for me to advance with the company I'm with now though, being the largest environmental laboratory in the country (www.emsl.com). My original job was with a more mom and pop sized company of like 10 employees, though the experience from that job landed my next. It was the only job offer I got in the 3 months following my graduation.
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby The Artful Dodger » Sat May 21, 2011 2:00 pm

Madison wrote:Ultimately I just think people should take a realistic look at college in every aspect prior to going and decide if the payoff is worth it to them or not. If they think it is, great, more power to them. But everyone should at least really look at what it costs them (time, money, etc) and what they are getting out of it. Article on the front page of Yahoo yesterday or the day before said 60% of graduates can't find a full time job in their field. And of course the people they quoted said stuff like "I thought I'd get a job easily!" and things of that nature. Those are people that didn't stop and look at reality before going to college.


Well, kids have two things going against them when making a decision about going to college.

One is time. Kids have a good idea of what they want to do in life by their teenage years, but those four years of high school sneak up on them fast. All the while, they're in that transition stage from teenage years into adulthood. It's awkward and often times not very fun. By the time many of those kids reach their senior year (junior year, even), they're ushered into preparing for college by their parents, teachers, and their peers. At this time, the outcome is binary: you go to college or you don't. Like I said, their career opportunities are likely limited compared to their later years and so, all the time they're left to think is taken up by a foregone conclusion of taking the road most taken.

The other thing is perspective. Teenagers are still growing in the way they view certain things and the world in general. However, they view things like morality, values, and motivation differently than they do as they grow older. I think a lot of kids think about their future, but for the most part, they're thinking of the here and now... Usually, that comes in the form of standardized tests, admission interviews, athletics, part-time work among other things.

Regarding expectations... well, the students' expectations are a byproduct of the environment around them too. Parents generally go by the mantra of "study hard to get to college, study well in college so that you get a good job". Teachers in general motivate their kids into working hard so that in the end, they'll get to college and get a good job. Much of this expectation is ingrained into those kids early on and into adulthood. In addition, many kids have confidence in their parents, teachers, and professors, because they know this from their own experiences. Once these kids get to college, their universities are likely to have the dedicated resources in helping them to get that job, in the form of career counseling, practice interviewing, courses, on-campus career fairs, and so on. This just increases confidence as well as those preconceived expectations, more so if you attended an Ivy League school. In the defense of parents, schools, and universities, each part of the ecosystem has a vested interest in their students doing well and getting a good job, for a variety of reasons.

That said, I do think many college grads and masters/doctorate graduates are aware of the rigors of finding a good job straight out of school. From that article you've quoted, those people interviewed are just airing out a general statement of their situation, but that doesn't totally reflect their awareness/scope completely. On that note, I know I've had a few professors who drove the point home that you had to look for a job at least by the start of your final quarter/semester. That way, you had an exit plan or two or more, just in case one or a few doors close. The positive with this approach obviously, is if you're rejected and you're still matriculating, you can better leverage your time and perceptions aren't likely to go against you. For example, if you took a two months "vacation" break since completing your degree, an employer can question your work ethic (and to a certain degree, they're right to).
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby BigLebowski » Sun May 22, 2011 12:36 am

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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby Madison » Sun May 22, 2011 4:58 am

The Artful Dodger wrote:Well, kids have two things going against them when making a decision about going to college.

One is time. Kids have a good idea of what they want to do in life by their teenage years, but those four years of high school sneak up on them fast. All the while, they're in that transition stage from teenage years into adulthood. It's awkward and often times not very fun. By the time many of those kids reach their senior year (junior year, even), they're ushered into preparing for college by their parents, teachers, and their peers. At this time, the outcome is binary: you go to college or you don't. Like I said, their career opportunities are likely limited compared to their later years and so, all the time they're left to think is taken up by a foregone conclusion of taking the road most taken.

The other thing is perspective. Teenagers are still growing in the way they view certain things and the world in general. However, they view things like morality, values, and motivation differently than they do as they grow older. I think a lot of kids think about their future, but for the most part, they're thinking of the here and now... Usually, that comes in the form of standardized tests, admission interviews, athletics, part-time work among other things.

Regarding expectations... well, the students' expectations are a byproduct of the environment around them too. Parents generally go by the mantra of "study hard to get to college, study well in college so that you get a good job". Teachers in general motivate their kids into working hard so that in the end, they'll get to college and get a good job. Much of this expectation is ingrained into those kids early on and into adulthood. In addition, many kids have confidence in their parents, teachers, and professors, because they know this from their own experiences. Once these kids get to college, their universities are likely to have the dedicated resources in helping them to get that job, in the form of career counseling, practice interviewing, courses, on-campus career fairs, and so on. This just increases confidence as well as those preconceived expectations, more so if you attended an Ivy League school. In the defense of parents, schools, and universities, each part of the ecosystem has a vested interest in their students doing well and getting a good job, for a variety of reasons.

That said, I do think many college grads and masters/doctorate graduates are aware of the rigors of finding a good job straight out of school. From that article you've quoted, those people interviewed are just airing out a general statement of their situation, but that doesn't totally reflect their awareness/scope completely. On that note, I know I've had a few professors who drove the point home that you had to look for a job at least by the start of your final quarter/semester. That way, you had an exit plan or two or more, just in case one or a few doors close. The positive with this approach obviously, is if you're rejected and you're still matriculating, you can better leverage your time and perceptions aren't likely to go against you. For example, if you took a two months "vacation" break since completing your degree, an employer can question your work ethic (and to a certain degree, they're right to).


I'd say the #1 problem for most kids is that they aren't taught critical thinking and how to think for themselves anymore. Earlier it was discussed at what age someone should be ready to tackle the world, for me, that is 18 years old. Several disagree with that, but if a kid is taught to think for himself and is exposed to how the real world works at a young age, there is no reason for a kid to not be ready at 18. Unfortunately school has become nothing more than "memorize this", which does no good at all. Tack on the "no losers" garbage (there are losers in the real world) and that most kids are "given" grades they didn't earn, and kids are definitely shielded from the real world for way, way too long and generally aren't ready at 18. But they should be. Instead, like you said, they are being conditioned to think a certain way. School, then college, then good job. Not only is that inaccurate due to the "job" part not being guaranteed and the odds of a "good" job being even more unlikely to happen, but they are not really taking a real look at what they are doing. They are just doing with they are conditioned to do. And yes, kids do look at the "here and now" most of the time. Quite a few adults are that way as well, so that one isn't just the kids. On the flip side though, more and more people are starting to look to the future by paying down credit cards, saving a bigger percentage of money, and so forth. So it is a trend that hopefully will continue and trickle down to the kids out there.

Sure, they were just airing out a bit in the article, but I don't doubt that both of those two thought they'd have a job pretty easily, and I'd bet substantial money they aren't the only two who thought (or still think) that way. Nice to hear college professors are trying to push the kids into the workforce sooner though, that extra lead time could be really helpful if the kids listen and act on that advice. ;-D

By the way, as to our discussion on businesses failing or succeeding, this is in the scroll news window at Yahoo right now:

Fortunately, more new businesses succeed than fail. According to the Census Bureau, nearly 7 in 10 new small businesses survive at least two years.


http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/112778/business-startup-traps-yahoo-small-business

I know we define "success" a little differently, so I'm not going to say I was right or anything, but just some food for thought. :-)
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby Matthias » Sun May 22, 2011 11:12 am

Madison wrote:
KCollins1304 wrote:
Madison wrote:Actually went back in my history, here's the article, and the direct quotes I mentioned:



Different girl:



http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/112754/recession-lost-generation-cnnmoney



I would say that is a lot the product of the recession that we're in than the futility of their degree. I've been out of school for 3 years and I'm still not making what I had envisioned I would make right out of school. Though I do know that I wouldn't have been able to get either of the 2 jobs that I've had without a degree. (I have a BS in Chemistry and have worked in a lab testing drinking water and waste water for metals and other inorganics, and my latest job I just started a few months ago is testing building materials for asbestos and paint, toys, water, etc for lead)

What I've said all the way through is that people should take a real look at the whole thing. There is no guaranteed job after a degree, no guaranteed salary of "X", no nothing. Far, far too many people go to college, spend the time and effort, shell out tens of thousands of dollars, and expect there to be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, when that isn't the case at all. Recession or no recession, really doesn't make a difference. I'll stipulate that due to the recession, a larger percentage are now realizing there's no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (and mistakenly blaming the recession for it), but it was happening long before the recession even started.

The girl in the quote probably has a better assessment of the reality of the situation than you do. "Guaranteed" is too strong of a word, obviously, but the odds of someone graduating from an Ivy League school and not finding a job seems to be extremely, extremely slim and unlikely.

Madison wrote:And while you said you wouldn't have gotten your jobs without a degree, you also admitted you're not making what you envisioned. So yes, the field you wanted to go into required a degree, but you overestimated the pay, which is in part why I'm suggesting people really think about the real world before going to college. A lot of people base their student loans and things on what they *think* they will earn after graduation, but they fail to take into consideration the fact that they might not make what they think they will, or they might not even be able to land a job in the first place. Either way, they find themselves with a very large financial hardship, and all because they didn't really think it through. So I'm simply saying people should think the decision through in reality prior to deciding if college is worth it or not.

During college, I did research for a professor who went on to win the Nobel Prize in Economics (Note: No way I ever get that kind of opportunity not going to college coming from a small farmtown in Minnesota). This professor's specialization was labor markets. Under his analysis, every level of education: high school, college, and masters had a positive coefficient (positive net effect) on your lifetime earnings including adjusting for things such as cost and opportunity cost. The only degree which did not was a PhD which makes sense as they take a number of years and don't generally qualify you for lucrative positions.

There may be some people who are better suited to go to a trade school instead of college. But to spend pages of Internet ink saying that college isn't worth it is just factually wrong. Like all things in life, there are probabilities involved. Some people are going to be the winners and some people are going to be the losers. But the probabilities are tilted in favor of the students.

People talk about the real world as if it's somewhere that they exclusively habitate. But I would stipulate that unless you're sitting near the levers of power, hanging out at Davos or hanging out with the New York bankers or the Beltway politicians, that you are completely oblivious as to what constitutes the real world. People are making seismic movements which change the reality of your landscape and you have no idea on the why and the what for. The best you glimpse is your lampshade trembling a little in your living room. Now, you can have a very nice life not knowing what is going on but while you do, you have a more limited perspective, not greater.
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby Madison » Sun May 22, 2011 9:24 pm

Matthias wrote:The girl in the quote probably has a better assessment of the reality of the situation than you do. "Guaranteed" is too strong of a word, obviously, but the odds of someone graduating from an Ivy League school and not finding a job seems to be extremely, extremely slim and unlikely.


She and I are seeing it the same, she just had to go to college to figure out what I knew before she went.

Yeah, real slim:

About 60% of recent graduates have not been able to find a full-time job in their chosen profession, according to job placement firm Adecco.


http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/112754/recession-lost-generation-cnnmoney

During college, I did research for a professor who went on to win the Nobel Prize in Economics (Note: No way I ever get that kind of opportunity not going to college coming from a small farmtown in Minnesota). This professor's specialization was labor markets. Under his analysis, every level of education: high school, college, and masters had a positive coefficient (positive net effect) on your lifetime earnings including adjusting for things such as cost and opportunity cost. The only degree which did not was a PhD which makes sense as they take a number of years and don't generally qualify you for lucrative positions.

There may be some people who are better suited to go to a trade school instead of college. But to spend pages of Internet ink saying that college isn't worth it is just factually wrong. Like all things in life, there are probabilities involved. Some people are going to be the winners and some people are going to be the losers. But the probabilities are tilted in favor of the students.

People talk about the real world as if it's somewhere that they exclusively habitate. But I would stipulate that unless you're sitting near the levers of power, hanging out at Davos or hanging out with the New York bankers or the Beltway politicians, that you are completely oblivious as to what constitutes the real world. People are making seismic movements which change the reality of your landscape and you have no idea on the why and the what for. The best you glimpse is your lampshade trembling a little in your living room. Now, you can have a very nice life not knowing what is going on but while you do, you have a more limited perspective, not greater.


So because of one study, people shouldn't think before investing tens of thousands of dollars? I've got some houses and cars to sell you if you only go by one study. ;-D

Sorry, 4 years of my life is far more valuable than the paltry reward 4 years of college would have given me. That isn't the case with everyone of course, but each person should decide that for themselves. We don't just spend tens of thousands of dollars on cars, homes, etc, without really looking at it all, and college shouldn't be any different.

"Reality" isn't for only the top what, 5% (random guess)? We all have to live in the real world, some just figure it out later than others.
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Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Re: Job insight.. More $$$ or Benefits?

Postby Matthias » Mon May 23, 2011 12:39 am

Madison wrote:
Matthias wrote:The girl in the quote probably has a better assessment of the reality of the situation than you do. "Guaranteed" is too strong of a word, obviously, but the odds of someone graduating from an Ivy League school and not finding a job seems to be extremely, extremely slim and unlikely.


She and I are seeing it the same, she just had to go to college to figure out what I knew before she went.

Yeah, real slim:

About 60% of recent graduates have not been able to find a full-time job in their chosen profession, according to job placement firm Adecco.


http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/112754/recession-lost-generation-cnnmoney

Differently specified models.

Her specification, and thus your original specification, is that she thought someone who went to an Ivy League school should be able to get a job. The statistic you cite to "support" your case is a sample of all college grads, not the best-quality Ivy League grads who should have much, much better chances than your average grad, and finding a job at all versus finding a job in your chosen field.

If you're not picking up on things like that, maybe you should go to college.

During college, I did research for a professor who went on to win the Nobel Prize in Economics (Note: No way I ever get that kind of opportunity not going to college coming from a small farmtown in Minnesota). This professor's specialization was labor markets. Under his analysis, every level of education: high school, college, and masters had a positive coefficient (positive net effect) on your lifetime earnings including adjusting for things such as cost and opportunity cost. The only degree which did not was a PhD which makes sense as they take a number of years and don't generally qualify you for lucrative positions.

There may be some people who are better suited to go to a trade school instead of college. But to spend pages of Internet ink saying that college isn't worth it is just factually wrong. Like all things in life, there are probabilities involved. Some people are going to be the winners and some people are going to be the losers. But the probabilities are tilted in favor of the students.

People talk about the real world as if it's somewhere that they exclusively habitate. But I would stipulate that unless you're sitting near the levers of power, hanging out at Davos or hanging out with the New York bankers or the Beltway politicians, that you are completely oblivious as to what constitutes the real world. People are making seismic movements which change the reality of your landscape and you have no idea on the why and the what for. The best you glimpse is your lampshade trembling a little in your living room. Now, you can have a very nice life not knowing what is going on but while you do, you have a more limited perspective, not greater.


So because of one study, people shouldn't think before investing tens of thousands of dollars? I've got some houses and cars to sell you if you only go by one study. ;-D

Who said it was only one study? You need to wake up and pay attention. In any case, between Econ Nobel winner who specializes in labor and works with actual nation-wide data (we had fairly strict privacy protocols put in place as we worked with Census data which had been stripped of identifying characteristics) and random Internet Tough Guy who never finished college who just leads out with quips and smilies, I'm taking the Nobel winner 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.

Sorry, 4 years of my life is far more valuable than the paltry reward 4 years of college would have given me. That isn't the case with everyone of course, but each person should decide that for themselves. We don't just spend tens of thousands of dollars on cars, homes, etc, without really looking at it all, and college shouldn't be any different.

People who have looked at it for a profession have decided that, on average, it is a good investment. It may not be a good investment for all. But if you're 18 years old and not sure, going to college is the positive value option.

"Reality" isn't for only the top what, 5% (random guess)? We all have to live in the real world, some just figure it out later than others.

Maybe you should talk to this guy.

Madison wrote:I've extended the invite many times and I'll do it again. You want to see the real world, come on down. First beer is on me. ;-D
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