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problem in my league...need help!!!

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problem in my league...need help!!!

Postby Jango » Thu May 23, 2002 6:32 pm

im running a yahoo fantasy league with some friends and i had a big problem this week. mark prior was added on waivers and one team, Horsemen, went out of their way to claim him. the Horsemen had a waiver priority of 9..which meant he wasnt going to get him. instead the Horsemen told another team that had #2 priority to claim him and then trade prior to him. the team that claimed prior with #2 didnt know who he was and as a result traded Prior to the Horsemen for Ramon Ortiz,Alou, and Carlos Pena. There is a lot of complaining about the move and the trade. Personally i dont think the move or the trade is right, and some teams in my league agree and disagree with me. What should be done? Appreciate any feedback.
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Postby Arlo » Fri May 24, 2002 9:49 am

That's a tough call, and a tough spot to be in as commish.

I'm assuming that a special case like this isn't covered by your league's constitution or rules...

You have to deal with several different issues here. The first is whether a trade of this sort, involving a player not yet claimed by either team, should be allowed. I'm not opposed to trades such as this or other unusual configurations, but that's just a matter of taste; some players disagree. At any rate, if this question isn't covered in your rules, then you can discuss what types of trades you want to allow in the future, but you shouldn't penalize the teams making the Prior deal for coming up with something new.

(Incidentally, I don't see any way to make a trade such as this illegal, since it's indistinguishable from one team picking up a player off waivers on their own, and then making a trade)

Anyway, the bottom line is that I see no problem with the move. That's not the only issue here, though. If one team didn't have all the information, I think you should pull the brakes, especially when playing with friends.

If the team trading Prior didn't know, for example, about Alou's hip or shoulder trouble, or wasn't aware of Pena being sent down (depending on when the trade was made, of course), the trade should be overruled, and all the information that was known at the time of the trade should be presented to both sides. I wouldn't include opinions about the quality of the players involved here, but only such things as injury status or Pena being sent down. If, after examining this information, both sides still want to make the deal to help their respective teams, they should be able to, and this deal should not be able to be overturned. If not, then there is no trade, and the two sides can renegotiate ór not, as they wish.

(By the way, even if the trade winds up not happening, I think the team that picked up Prior should be allowed to keep him, even if they didn't know who he was.)

The most important thing, though, is that your league reaches a consensus on how to handle this. I think this way would be fair to everyone, and hopefully keep this from being a divisive issue. Let me know what you think, and what you decide to do. Good luck.

In my own primary league, by the way, we ask teams trading for injured players (for example) to briefly post that they're aware of the injury concerned; that eliminates a lot of trouble, and we haven't had a single protest since the league was founded.

Any other thoughts on this tricky issue?
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Postby timkell » Fri May 24, 2002 10:34 am

I definitely think this type of trade should be allowed. Most of the complaining about the type of trade seems like sour grapes to me. The Horsemen wanted Prior and knew someone who could get him. I don't see any difference between this trade and what NFL teams do when trading up for draft picks. It's smart ownership. Applaud the guy for his smart thinking and don't let him beat you to the punch next time.

Now, I agree with Arlo that if the guy who traded Prior had no idea about Pena going to the minors and Alou having injury problems then maybe the trade should be quashed.

Overall, though, I think the horseman gave a pretty fair amount to get Prior. The Horseman win out, but he Alou, though injured, is no slouch. The guy is a rookie. What do the players in your league think he's worth? Ortiz is pitching pretty well, although he's not highly touted. Alou is a veteran star with injury problems. If he recovers, he could start turning it on. Pena, I don't know about that.

The people in your league should not be upset about the transaction. If the number 2 team feels he got lied to on the deal, then cancel the trade and he keeps Prior. There should be no complaints, IMO, about the process.

For example, how could the number 3 waiver wire order team claim that he should get Prior? Number 2 picked him up legally. What's wrong with that? If he wants to trade him right away, that's his prerogative.

Most fantasy veterans also say to stay away from rookie pitchers. They frequently get hurt and they're inconsistent. Prior looks special, but remember Matt Morris' first few years? Kerry Wood? A star right out of the gate is the overwhelming exception, not the rule. Prior should not be considered a top 30 pitcher until he proves his durability and strings some wins together. I wish I had him on my team, but I'm not going to trade Matt Morris for him!
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Thanks for the help but...

Postby Jango » Fri May 24, 2002 7:49 pm

Appreciate the help but now the team that picked up Prior and traded him just bolted my league. he said there was too many complaints for him to handle. we are going to have a draft, but i wanted to resolve the trade first. what i failed to mention before was that the Horsemen picked up Ortiz last week, he pitched 1 game, and got shelled. Then the Horsemen figured he unload him to the team who knew the least about fantasy baseball. The team who traded Prior is in last place and had Pudge starting a month after he got injured!!! I think the move is a smart one, but in an internet league with friends, its seems shady. Especially that the Horsemen and the team in question are close friends and talk everyday. Its not fair to make such a trade when other teams in the league would have no way to make such a trade. From the time Prior was available to the time he was claimed was 1 day. Consider the fact that he went to the person with the #2 priority, and passed over #1 who has some more fantasy knowledge and is in competion in the standings. Obviously the team who traded Prior had no clue who he was getting, because anytime you trade for a player in the minors, then somethings up. He had pretty much given up on the league before this, and thats why the trade is in question. The Horsemen know that he couldnt get Prior from any other team in the league for what he gave up, and thats what is making some teams very upset. We know that the team who traded Prior didnt know who he was and basically gave him away. With players like Halladay, Nomo, and Kip Wells as free agents, Ortiz is considered on their level or a little bit below those players. Would like some more feedback to what should be done to even the trade.
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Postby Arlo » Sat May 25, 2002 11:35 am

Hmm... that changes things a bit. If the team trading Prior was inactive at the time of the trade, I can see why people are upset. I wouldn't worry about some of these factors, such as whether the team trading Prior knew much about him or who is available on waivers, but that team's inactivity makes this trade a problem.

Perhaps the best solution, if everyone can agree on this, would be to let the Horsemen keep Prior, but exclude them from x rounds of the dispersal draft? Some sort of compromise like this would probably be the best way to go, since any other solution, such as either letting the trade stand as is or nixing it entirely (And who would get Prior then? The team with the highest waiver priority, or would he be part of the draft?), would be problematic. If all sides could agree on something like this, you'd be doing your league a huge service.

If you can't reach a compromise solution such as this or something similar, I'd put the issue to a vote, and let the majority decide (with the commish breaking ties). If it comes down to such a decision, I'd probably be in favor of disallowing the trade in the interest of good sportsmanship.

Good luck. Sounds like an awful situation, but with a bit of luck you can get everybody to think in the interest of the league as a whole and put this behind you.
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Postby timkell » Mon May 27, 2002 2:51 pm

It does make things interesting, but what i don't get is, why didn't the guy with #1 priority pick up Prior? In your last note, Jango, you make it sound like the #1 guy got screwed. He obviously didn't try to pick up Prior, or he would have gotten him.

All of this circumstantial evidence does make it seem a bit fishy. With the other guy quitting, it does sort of point to the Horsemen dumping players.

I posted a few weeks ago about a trade in my league that I thought was ridiculous. I was thinking of protesting. I knew there was no collusion or anything. I just thought one person was making a real stupid deal and getting screwed by a more experienced player. But I got some advice from Arlo, and he was right. We need to let players learn from their mistakes.

So arguments like, "this guy didn't know how valuable Prior was." don't really hold any water. It's his responsibility to know those things. The trade should not be blocked based on the fact that he should have known he could get more for him. When you said "the Horsemen figured he's unload on the person who knew the least..." while I think that's unethical, it should not be illegal, unless your league all agreed ahead of time that you could squash trades like that. The Horsemen will pay in the long run for lopsided deals with inexperienced players because the rest of the league will be reluctant to deal with him. When a player on his team gets hurt and he looks to trade, you guys can all say "go check the waiver wire, buddy."

Now, if you guys really feel he colluded with the other player, then maybe the trade should be stopped and Prior should be put back on #2's roster. Then a draft can be done.

You should tread lightly, though. You want this league to continue. If he didn't collude, but he knows he took a bit too much advantage, you should be able to compromise. You've already lost one guy from the league. You don't want to all gang up on the Horsemen and have him quit, too. It may help if you point this out to the rest of the league. Try to stop the arguing and get down to working out what's fair, so you can all move on. You could even say Horsemen get to keep Prior, but that counts as his first round pick in the draft. You're best off keeping the Horseman involved in the discussion on what to do. If you all force something down his throat, he'll probably quit.

Good luck!
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Postby Jango » Tue May 28, 2002 3:37 pm

Well, we have decided to rework the Horsemen's trade for Prior. Instead of the trade being Ramon Ortiz, Pena, and Alou it will be Odalis Perez and Alou. Also, because the team that quit had many star players, we had a lottery for a draft. The Horsemen have the number 5 pick and isnt allowed to draft either of the players he gave up in the trade. Thinks it the best solution to allow the league to continue.
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Postby Arlo » Tue May 28, 2002 3:42 pm

If everyone is happy now (or only grumbling a little bit...), then it's most definitely an excellent solution. It certainly sounds like a good compromise to me.

Score one for the commish! ;-D
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