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Re: GM hourly workers get $4,000 bonuses

Postby bigh0rt » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:58 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:Without some sort of consensus--or at least a starting point--of what constitutes a "bad" teacher, this discussion is entirely pointless.

Amen. I have former students and parents who probably think I'm the worst teacher who has ever walked the earth, and others who have written me thanking me for being the greatest and most influential they had in their four years of high school when I literally treated the former and the latter identically. Truth be told, I, like the vast majority of teachers out there, likely fall somewhere in the middle.
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Re: GM hourly workers get $4,000 bonuses

Postby Neato Torpedo » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:11 pm

Madison wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:
Madison wrote:
Agreed. I can't count how many bad teachers my kid has had and I know I had at least a dozen that really had no place being paid for what they were doing.

What were they doing wrong? Because it's interesting that you and wrveres agree that I had more than one bad teacher, especially since I'm only a few years removed from the public school system which gives me a more accurate representation of past experiences, compounded with that fact that neither of you have a damn clue as to who my teachers were or their quality of teaching. The sheer gall both of you have basing your opinions on literally zero information is amazing, and if you can't back your statement up with any kind of evidence that any of my teachers were bad, you have no choice than to shut whatever orifice you use to spout the nonsense that you do. And I figure that you can't possible give two completely baseless assessments in one day, so I'd really like to hear what your kid's teachers are doing wrong, so I can maybe compare them to my teachers just to see if we have different standards.


Obviously you had more than one bad teacher if you read those comments as saying you were wrong and that you had more than one bad teacher. :-b I was simply agreeing with WR that there are way more bad teachers out there than you think.

And my kid is currently in school, so your "more accurate representation of past experiences" drivel holds zero water since it's your past and my present.

As to spouting nonsense, you might want to look in the mirror for the culprit:

Dan Lambskin wrote:most teachers are good at their job


Based on your 30 teacher experience? Heck, my kid isn't even in high school yet and he's had more than 30 teachers already. He's had 12 this year alone (7 for regular school, 5 more at the alternative school - bad behavior). At least half don't deserve their paychecks and the majority of them can't do something as simple as update his grades. It's all online, we check daily, and he gets punished for bad grades/missing assignments/etc, but that's really hard to do accurately when most of his teachers cannot be bothered enough to do their jobs.

Dan Lambskin wrote:29.5 good teachers out of 30 total has to mean something,


Yeah, means you must have been really lucky or miscounted (hope you were lucky, miscounting by that much would be the result of bad teaching). I had in the neighborhood of 25 teachers in high school alone! You only had 30 in your life? And only 1 was bad, which you discounted to one half? Cool for you but that isn't the norm.

Dan Lambskin wrote:I've always said, I'd rather give food to a child that's already eaten


Results in fat little piglets. :-b

I like how you attributed all of my quotes to Dan. :-b

Anyway, the original statement wr made was disagreeing with my statement that I had only one bad teacher. You agreed with him. Maybe you misread what he said, but it's pretty clear that he thought that I had bad teachers which resulted in my warped worldview. Trust me, I got a 33 on the ACT in reading comprehension.

Also, I just recounted year to year and I counted roughly 52 teachers I had from kindergarten to the end of high school. About 40 of them were uninspiring but got the job done (something like 1.5-2 wins above replacement level, in baseball terms), some were excellent (especially given that I was kind of a prick as a kid, but I'll freely attribute that to terrible parenting and poor family structure), and only that one English teacher in sophomore year sticks out as being overly negative to my school experience. And that was probably on my end because I was the one that called his interpretation of eggs idiotic (long story). Yes, I got lucky, but I think that some people have standards for teachers that are unreasonably high. If a child doesn't know how to do long division, then it's up to the teacher to give that information. But if a child doesn't understand the value of homework and studying, that's up to the parents and the parents alone.

And I think personal experience of teachers trumps your experience of teachers through your kid. No one likes school and if your son is anything like a normal person, then he's going to hate on his teachers left and right, and as such, determining the quality of his teachers like asking a child if vegetables are good, and if he/she says no, then taking it as truth that vegetables are not good. Until you get to college, you don't actually appreciate the value of a decent teacher. Sometimes not even then.

So I asked you what you think constitutes a bad teacher. You said not updating grades online. That's all you can think of? Easy fix: get a filing cabinet at home and stick all the assignments/tests in there. Bam, problem solved. And besides, even assuming the teacher doesn't physically hand them back quickly (assuming they can do it, assuming they're not horrendously backlogged with hundreds of tests and homework assignments to grade accurately, assuming they're not waiting on other classes to take their tests or hand in their homework, assuming they intend to take the time to take into account the work shown and evidence cited, assuming they don't have any lesson plans to plan out, assuming they don't have other classes to teach, assuming they aren't making themselves available to help students out of class) what's the worst case scenario of not knowing your grade? You assume a bad grade and you study more. It's the teacher's job to be a teacher 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Sometimes, holy crap, they can't get everything accomplished in 40 hours. And you can't expect them to work more than that, even though most teachers do take assignments home to grade off hours. I think the criteria for being a bad teacher mainly refers to actions or behaviors that stunt the educational development of students or just flat out not teach things.

And you also have to take into account that if your kid has different educational needs than most students, then you can't expect the teacher to run the class in the way your kid needs to. If 5 kids out of 25 don't learn the way the other 20 do, it's unfair to expect the teacher to modify the teaching style based on the needs of those 5. Being one of those 5 for most of my childhood, I have personal experience with that. On many different occasions, my teachers went above and beyond the bounds of their job to meet together and make special conditions for my misbehaving ass. But again, expecting them to do things like that is like taking your car to get fixed and expecting the mechanic to mow your lawn.
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Re: GM hourly workers get $4,000 bonuses

Postby bigh0rt » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:43 am

Neato Torpedo wrote:And you also have to take into account that if your kid has different educational needs than most students, then you can't expect the teacher to run the class in the way your kid needs to. If 5 kids out of 25 don't learn the way the other 20 do, it's unfair to expect the teacher to modify the teaching style based on the needs of those 5.

Not to interject myself here, but this is almost exactly what is being asked of teachers in 2011. Not to meet just the needs of the 5, but to meet the needs of the former 20, and the latter 5. Reasoning behind it is that the kids can't help their 'Learning Style' (this is the term you'll want to Google if you want to research it) but the teacher can adapt and differentiate their teaching style such that every student in the class maximizes their learning. My district happens to be one of the few in the world certified to train teachers in these methods and we all went to a two week seminar on it two summers ago where teachers from all over the world came to learn. There were teachers from Canada, Denmark, Sweden, and all across the United States, that I interacted with). As always, I can't speak on behalf of all of the teachers in the United States, but I know that there is an awful lot being asked of people in this profession, and the ones I've had the pleasure to work and interact with do a bang up job.

As for updating the grades online, our grade books are available on line as well 24/7 for students and teachers to access at home, and if I don't have a grade up in a timely fashion, and I've listed the Quiz/Test/Whatever with a blank grade next to it, e-mails start pouring in from parents like I'm raping their children of their education. Mad, when you feel a grade isn't up in a timely fashion, shoot the teacher a friendly e-mail asking what the grade was on whatever assessment it is -- that usually works on me. Even if my grade book isn't totally updated, those who request grades are given grades instantaneously. Reason being it's easy for me to shoot 5 e-mails out with grades than to update 150 students, which is often the case.
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Re: GM hourly workers get $4,000 bonuses

Postby wrveres » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:24 am

Neato Torpedo wrote:Maybe you misread what he said, but it's pretty clear that he thought that I had bad teachers which resulted in my warped worldview.

this.
7 hours a day, 5 days a week, 9 months a year, 15 to18 years of that liberal tripe. Hell, I actually feel sorry for you. ;-)
Like i said earlier. its not your fault.

curious.

do you own a Che t-shirt?
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Re: GM hourly workers get $4,000 bonuses

Postby dAnzac » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:31 am

wrveres wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:Maybe you misread what he said, but it's pretty clear that he thought that I had bad teachers which resulted in my warped worldview.

this.
7 hours a day, 5 days a week, 9 months a year, 15 to18 years of that liberal tripe. Hell, I actually feel sorry for you. ;-)
Like i said earlier. its not your fault.

curious.

do you own a Che t-shirt?


Comrade Neato does not have to answer this, capitalist pig :^
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Re: GM hourly workers get $4,000 bonuses

Postby Neato Torpedo » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:09 pm

wrveres wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:Maybe you misread what he said, but it's pretty clear that he thought that I had bad teachers which resulted in my warped worldview.

this.
7 hours a day, 5 days a week, 9 months a year, 15 to18 years of that liberal tripe. Hell, I actually feel sorry for you. ;-)
Like i said earlier. its not your fault.

curious.

do you own a Che t-shirt?

No, I have always disapproved of Guevara's use of violence and I don't believe it was justified. I do, however, own several Rage Against the Machine shirts. I'm wearing one right now. ;-D
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Rocinante2: its easy to dismiss the orioles as a bad team
ofanrex: go on
Rocinante2: i'm done
Rocinante2: lmao

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Re: GM hourly workers get $4,000 bonuses

Postby Neato Torpedo » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:21 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:And you also have to take into account that if your kid has different educational needs than most students, then you can't expect the teacher to run the class in the way your kid needs to. If 5 kids out of 25 don't learn the way the other 20 do, it's unfair to expect the teacher to modify the teaching style based on the needs of those 5.

Not to interject myself here, but this is almost exactly what is being asked of teachers in 2011. Not to meet just the needs of the 5, but to meet the needs of the former 20, and the latter 5. Reasoning behind it is that the kids can't help their 'Learning Style' (this is the term you'll want to Google if you want to research it) but the teacher can adapt and differentiate their teaching style such that every student in the class maximizes their learning. My district happens to be one of the few in the world certified to train teachers in these methods and we all went to a two week seminar on it two summers ago where teachers from all over the world came to learn. There were teachers from Canada, Denmark, Sweden, and all across the United States, that I interacted with). As always, I can't speak on behalf of all of the teachers in the United States, but I know that there is an awful lot being asked of people in this profession, and the ones I've had the pleasure to work and interact with do a bang up job.

Well, I sort of misspoke. What I meant was if 20/25 students are visual learners, two are auditory, and three are tactile, there's only so much in terms of auditory or tactile teaching you can do without detracting too much from the other 22 or 23 students. Also, I totally knew about learning styles; we were taught those in high school and I also live with two teachers who practiced speeches about learning styles on some of us.
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Rocinante2: you know
Rocinante2: its easy to dismiss the orioles as a bad team
ofanrex: go on
Rocinante2: i'm done
Rocinante2: lmao

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Re: GM hourly workers get $4,000 bonuses

Postby bigh0rt » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:23 pm

Neato Torpedo wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:And you also have to take into account that if your kid has different educational needs than most students, then you can't expect the teacher to run the class in the way your kid needs to. If 5 kids out of 25 don't learn the way the other 20 do, it's unfair to expect the teacher to modify the teaching style based on the needs of those 5.

Not to interject myself here, but this is almost exactly what is being asked of teachers in 2011. Not to meet just the needs of the 5, but to meet the needs of the former 20, and the latter 5. Reasoning behind it is that the kids can't help their 'Learning Style' (this is the term you'll want to Google if you want to research it) but the teacher can adapt and differentiate their teaching style such that every student in the class maximizes their learning. My district happens to be one of the few in the world certified to train teachers in these methods and we all went to a two week seminar on it two summers ago where teachers from all over the world came to learn. There were teachers from Canada, Denmark, Sweden, and all across the United States, that I interacted with). As always, I can't speak on behalf of all of the teachers in the United States, but I know that there is an awful lot being asked of people in this profession, and the ones I've had the pleasure to work and interact with do a bang up job.

Well, I sort of misspoke. What I meant was if 20/25 students are visual learners, two are auditory, and three are tactile, there's only so much in terms of auditory or tactile teaching you can do without detracting too much from the other 22 or 23 students. Also, I totally knew about learning styles; we were taught those in high school and I also live with two teachers who practiced speeches about learning styles on some of us.

The secret about learning styles is that about 92% of it is complete and utter BS. The 8% that isn't, though, works beautifully.
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Re: GM hourly workers get $4,000 bonuses

Postby Neato Torpedo » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:44 pm

So I heard from the guy that did the con speech. :-D Also, by all means interject. You have a lot more personal experience and authority on the inner workings of the teaching process than most here.
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Rocinante2: you know
Rocinante2: its easy to dismiss the orioles as a bad team
ofanrex: go on
Rocinante2: i'm done
Rocinante2: lmao

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Re: GM hourly workers get $4,000 bonuses

Postby Madison » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:21 pm

Dan Lambskin wrote:how'd i get brought into this


See what I mean?

teechas didnt teech mi nuttin

:-b


My apologies Dan, not sure why I stuck the wrong person in there for quotes. :-/

The Artful Dodger wrote:Maybe it's your district or particular school?


True, school districts (even schools individually) can be very different. The kiddo has been in 3 different districts now (Fort Worth - YUCK!, Arlington - not much better, and now Mansfield - best so far, but still needs improvement). So yes of course, school districts do make a difference and I'd go so far as to say each school is different. But so far based on experience and what I read, there could be vast improvements across the entire country and for the matter of this discussion, tons and tons of teachers that should be fired. I'm all for rewarding the good teachers, I have run across a few of them, and the country definitely needs more of them. Unfortunately when the bad teachers can't get weeded out in a timely manner, a lot of good teachers don't go into the profession.

Neato Torpedo wrote:I like how you attributed all of my quotes to Dan. :-b

Anyway, the original statement wr made was disagreeing with my statement that I had only one bad teacher. You agreed with him. Maybe you misread what he said, but it's pretty clear that he thought that I had bad teachers which resulted in my warped worldview. Trust me, I got a 33 on the ACT in reading comprehension.

Also, I just recounted year to year and I counted roughly 52 teachers I had from kindergarten to the end of high school. About 40 of them were uninspiring but got the job done (something like 1.5-2 wins above replacement level, in baseball terms), some were excellent (especially given that I was kind of a prick as a kid, but I'll freely attribute that to terrible parenting and poor family structure), and only that one English teacher in sophomore year sticks out as being overly negative to my school experience. And that was probably on my end because I was the one that called his interpretation of eggs idiotic (long story). Yes, I got lucky, but I think that some people have standards for teachers that are unreasonably high. If a child doesn't know how to do long division, then it's up to the teacher to give that information. But if a child doesn't understand the value of homework and studying, that's up to the parents and the parents alone.

And I think personal experience of teachers trumps your experience of teachers through your kid. No one likes school and if your son is anything like a normal person, then he's going to hate on his teachers left and right, and as such, determining the quality of his teachers like asking a child if vegetables are good, and if he/she says no, then taking it as truth that vegetables are not good. Until you get to college, you don't actually appreciate the value of a decent teacher. Sometimes not even then.

So I asked you what you think constitutes a bad teacher. You said not updating grades online. That's all you can think of? Easy fix: get a filing cabinet at home and stick all the assignments/tests in there. Bam, problem solved. And besides, even assuming the teacher doesn't physically hand them back quickly (assuming they can do it, assuming they're not horrendously backlogged with hundreds of tests and homework assignments to grade accurately, assuming they're not waiting on other classes to take their tests or hand in their homework, assuming they intend to take the time to take into account the work shown and evidence cited, assuming they don't have any lesson plans to plan out, assuming they don't have other classes to teach, assuming they aren't making themselves available to help students out of class) what's the worst case scenario of not knowing your grade? You assume a bad grade and you study more. It's the teacher's job to be a teacher 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Sometimes, holy crap, they can't get everything accomplished in 40 hours. And you can't expect them to work more than that, even though most teachers do take assignments home to grade off hours. I think the criteria for being a bad teacher mainly refers to actions or behaviors that stunt the educational development of students or just flat out not teach things.

And you also have to take into account that if your kid has different educational needs than most students, then you can't expect the teacher to run the class in the way your kid needs to. If 5 kids out of 25 don't learn the way the other 20 do, it's unfair to expect the teacher to modify the teaching style based on the needs of those 5. Being one of those 5 for most of my childhood, I have personal experience with that. On many different occasions, my teachers went above and beyond the bounds of their job to meet together and make special conditions for my misbehaving ass. But again, expecting them to do things like that is like taking your car to get fixed and expecting the mechanic to mow your lawn.


If WR's comment was due to your world view, then I missed the inside joke. I was simply agreeing that the rate of bad teachers is a whole lot worse than 1 in 60 (or .5 out of 30, or 1 out of 52, or whatever numbers you are using now).

My expectations on teachers aren't unreasonably high, I hold them to the same standards as I do for anyone. Do the job or be fired. I don't even have to go any further back than my senior year to surpass your .5 bad teachers. My senior English teacher was a drunk. The school investigated when I informed them (either they already knew and were simply looking the other way, or they were idiots) and they gave her the choice of retirement or being fired. One I always chuckle at is sophomore year I had a Spanish teacher that was quitting at the end of the year to sell Mary Kay full time, she already had her pink Cadillac and everything. Know what we did for that whole semester (18 weeks)? Watched movies in Spanish. Didn't even need a pencil that whole semester. Didn't have a single assignment and not one test. Kids literally slept the entire semester and got an "A" in the class. Now while that's awesome and all, it isn't exactly something she should have been paid for doing. So yeah, you got lucky as far as your numbers.

Oddly enough, my kid likes school. He doesn't like math or "work", but he enjoys school and loves to learn when he doesn't think he's doing work (science experiments would be a perfect example of something he absolutely loves to do in school or after - they have "science night" occasionally where they do experiments and learn).

I didn't even get started into what constitutes a bad teacher. I simply pointed out that they can't even keep up with his grades. But go ahead and make excuse after excuse for them not doing their jobs. I mean it's clear from day 1 each year that the teachers will keep those grades updated daily, we get that in written material from the school, so that is part of their job and doing it actually helps them by keeping the parents updated and involved. Yet they don't do it. And no, they give zero assignments back to the kids, so we have no clue what his grades are except for progress reports at the 3 week mark and report cards at the 6 week mark. I remember comparing my graded and returned papers with the teacher's grade book back when I was a youngster, but now it is asking too much to simply enter the grades into a computer? Now that's funny. But keep making excuses for their incompetence, it's what this country has become. We're excuse makers nowadays instead of problem solvers and that's such a wonderful thing we certainly need to foster and nurture that attitude so it continues... ;-7

Hey, I had a lot of good teachers, but I had more than my fair share of teachers that didn't deserve their paycheck. Same goes for my kid. As to the discussion that was taking place, the union is a bad thing for schools. Allow schools to terminate the bad teachers on the spot (like practically any other job allows) and there would certainly be an increase in teaching and an influx of good teachers taking those wasted spots. The kids and the country win.

bigh0rt wrote: Mad, when you feel a grade isn't up in a timely fashion, shoot the teacher a friendly e-mail asking what the grade was on whatever assessment it is -- that usually works on me. Even if my grade book isn't totally updated, those who request grades are given grades instantaneously. Reason being it's easy for me to shoot 5 e-mails out with grades than to update 150 students, which is often the case.


While you are one of the good teachers out there it seems, his aren't. Over the last couple of years I've probably emailed 10 different teachers asking how his grades look or asking why he's got 10 assignments listed on their page for the last two weeks and all are zeros when I know he did the work. They don't bother responding. I usually end up having to go to the school and that doesn't accomplish anything either. I generally don't care if I rub someone the wrong way, but I go out of my way to coddle and be polite with his teachers and that's done no good. I think I might just put the "happy face" back in the closet and be myself next year. Can't hurt at this point.

I guess Neato is right, they are too busy to actually do their jobs. Must be nice, I wish I could use that excuse as to why work doesn't get done.
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