GM hourly workers get $4,000 bonuses

[AquaMan2342]

i think this whole argument already happened.. in 1935. turns out, they are important.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I never said they weren't important or that they should be abolished.

I'm not saying anything at all.. no intent on an argument, just pointing out that greed is still the same as it was 75 years ago.

I don't think it is though.....the unions were originated to check those in charge of corporations and fight for workers' rights. It's become a lot more than that though. You know it's getting out of hand when educated people with degrees are fighting for jobs while someone who dropped out of your high school is getting paid 50 grand a year to load trucks.

[Tavish]

I don't think it is though.....the unions were originated to check those in charge of corporations and fight for workers' rights. It's become a lot more than that though. You know it's getting out of hand when educated people with degrees are fighting for jobs while someone who dropped out of your high school is getting paid 50 grand a year to load trucks.

I'm not sure that shows things are getting out of hand. I think it shows that there is more job demand for truck loaders than there is for whatever field of study the person received their degree in.

[AquaMan2342]

I don't think it is though.....the unions were originated to check those in charge of corporations and fight for workers' rights. It's become a lot more than that though. You know it's getting out of hand when educated people with degrees are fighting for jobs while someone who dropped out of your high school is getting paid 50 grand a year to load trucks.

I'm not sure that shows things are getting out of hand. I think it shows that there is more job demand for truck loaders than there is for whatever field of study the person received their degree in.

I'd argue the opposite....it shows that the unions are immune to market forces...and that's how they entrench themselves enough to pay ridiculous amounts of money to labor that shouldn't cost nearly that amount. That's also why truck loaders from privately owned companies without unions (those who are employed) get paid 15 bucks an hour and can barely support their families or themselves.

[RugbyD]

And to think, all this wouldn't have been possible without Obama's socialist takeover of GM.

I may be way behind the thread, but don't forget to add in "illegal screwing over of bondholders for the benefit of unions".

[jfg]

I've worked union and non-union and in my experience working union has been a far better experience. I never had benefits taken away, management treated you with respect, you didn't feel that you were expendable- experience trumped all. I can't say that about most of the non-union jobs I've worked.

[AquaMan2342]

I've worked union and non-union and in my experience working union has been a far better experience. I never had benefits taken away, management treated you with respect, you didn't feel that you were expendable- experience trumped all. I can't say that about most of the non-union jobs I've worked.

Because most of the employees and employers within a union aren't in a competition to keep their jobs; they're already set most of the time. Like ken said, they don't have to worry about performance necessarily because their jobs are protected.

EDIT: It's also like what Lebowski said with teachers.....same thing. Teachers don't work nearly as hard as they should to maintain their abilities throughout their career because once they're in they have absolutely nothing to worry about. It's amazing how many of my high school teachers didn't really care.

[jfg]

Maybe there isn't a competition, but it does create a stable work environment. Plus, even without unions there are going to be people who aren't able to perform but do enough to get by. Thinking that eliminating teachers unions will create schools full of great teachers isn't right either. A 60 year old is not performing the same way as she did when they first entered teaching at 23. Do you think you can do better? Do we push that teacher out of the job to get another rookie in there? In MN it takes 3 years to reach tenure. In my opinion that is enough time to evaluate a good teacher... and honestly how many people are going to phone it in after 3 years and collect the meager checks they get? The problem exists in the teachers who have been around for a long time but IMO you give those ones the benefit of the doubt.

[AquaMan2342]

Maybe there isn't a competition, but it does create a stable work environment. Plus, even without unions there are going to be people who aren't able to perform but do enough to get by. Thinking that eliminating teachers unions will create schools full of great teachers isn't right either. A 60 year old is not performing the same way as she did when they first entered teaching at 23. Do you think you can do better? Do we push that teacher out of the job to get another rookie in there? In MN it takes 3 years to reach tenure. In my opinion that is enough time to evaluate a good teacher... and honestly how many people are going to phone it in after 3 years and collect the meager checks they get? The problem exists in the teachers who have been around for a long time but IMO you give those ones the benefit of the doubt.

At least without unions those who are doing enough to get by won't be getting paid a ridiculous amount to do so. The employer wouldn't have their hands tied either and could sever ties with a subpar worker if they see fit. Instead you continue to overpay below average to average workers and can't do anything about it.

The problem with teachers is that their payscale escalates continuously as you gain seniority so in effect you end up getting paid to do less because you have already reached tenure. How do you solve the teaching problem? Raise their initial pay substantially while constantly monitoring their performance and make decisions based as such. Why should teaching be any different than any other profession? Performance should arguably more important for our early education system than any other profession......the education of our citizens is at stake.

[jfg]

Meausring by performance is going to take all creativity out of the classroom. Some of my favorite teachers would no longer be able to do their job in a way that really reached a lot of us. I went to private school in 10th grade and the school had close to the best test scores in the state. But, it was the worst learning experience I've ever had and I went back to public school the next year. You know why? Because those teachers were instructed on how to get kids to pass a stupid test, not how to really grasp the material. Rewarding performance is going to create robot teachers and robot kids because teachers won't be able to experiment in the classroom and teach each individual the way they need to be taught. I will take some bad teachers to that alternative.

[AquaMan2342]

Meausring by performance is going to take all creativity out of the classroom. Some of my favorite teachers would no longer be able to do their job in a way that really reached a lot of us. I went to private school in 10th grade and the school had close to the best test scores in the state. But, it was the worst learning experience I've ever had and I went back to public school the next year. You know why? Because those teachers were instructed on how to get kids to pass a stupid test, not how to really grasp the material. Rewarding performance is going to create robot teachers and robot kids because teachers won't be able to experiment in the classroom and teach each individual the way they need to be taught. I will take some bad teachers to that alternative.

I understand, but you're intelligent. A lot of people aren't and need structure and discipline to optimize classroom performance. If it was up to me the entire education system would be revamped, but holding teachers accountable for their performance should be one of the top priorities. That doesn't mean tailor them into teachers who's sole concern is to prepare their students for a single test either. There's a lot to what I would do with the education system so I won't type it all out but yeah.