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Mulling expansion of 10-team league to 12. Pitfalls?

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Mulling expansion of 10-team league to 12. Pitfalls?

Postby Kodiak » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:36 am

I'm commish for a competitive, 5x5 10-team AL/NL league on Yahoo. This will be our ninth year and everyone is returning. I've been contemplating expanding to a 12-team league and making some changes. I've got some reasons for doing so, but perhaps you have some suggestions or advice?

(1) Expanding to 12 teams — It's been suggested that the league isn't deep enough — that it's basically an "All-Star League" — because we're only drafting the top 220 AL and NL players. By expanding to 12, we would be at 264. What is considered a good depth?
(2) Keeping the number of draft rounds at 22 — Currently we start C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, 3 OF, 1 Util, 2 SP, 2 RP and 3 P. We have six bench spots. I'm concerned that if we add too many more rounds that we would also then need to, at some point, perhaps add a second Util or go up on pitchers. I really don't want to change the starting positions. Should I add rounds?
(3) Change the playoff format — Last year, we had two divisions of five teams each. The division winners made the playoffs, but playoff seeds (six total) were determined by overall record. I've been told that this defeats the purpose of having divisions. I like having divisions, but last year I wasn't comfortable with handing the division winners an automatic first-round bye. But if we expanded to 12 teams and each division had six, I feel a little bit better about it. I would put one expansion team in each division. Should division winners get a first-round bye?

Would my league be better if I made these changes? Or should I keep things the same? Thanks in advance for any and all advice.

Gracias,
Kodiak :-D
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Re: Mulling expansion of 10-team league to 12. Pitfalls?

Postby bigmck » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:40 am

Kodiak wrote:I'm commish for a competitive, 5x5 10-team AL/NL league on Yahoo. This will be our ninth year and everyone is returning. I've been contemplating expanding to a 12-team league and making some changes. I've got some reasons for doing so, but perhaps you have some suggestions or advice?

(1) Expanding to 12 teams — It's been suggested that the league isn't deep enough — that it's basically an "All-Star League" — because we're only drafting the top 220 AL and NL players. By expanding to 12, we would be at 264. What is considered a good depth?
===========================
Yours is very shallow. For years I have played in an NL Only with 23 players and 11 Fantasy teams. We are choosing about the same number of players but your player pool is twice as big. I have always felt that 60% of the player pool should be drafted. You are drafting about 33%.
==========================
(2) Keeping the number of draft rounds at 22 — Currently we start C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, 3 OF, 1 Util, 2 SP, 2 RP and 3 P. We have six bench spots. I'm concerned that if we add too many more rounds that we would also then need to, at some point, perhaps add a second Util or go up on pitchers. I really don't want to change the starting positions. Should I add rounds?
=========================
You have to either decrease your player pool or increase your players drafted. You could play 5 OF and add a Corner Fielder (1B or 3B) and a Middle Fielder (2B or SS). Having a large bench does nothing for your team. Starters is what matters
================================

(3) Change the playoff format — Last year, we had two divisions of five teams each. The division winners made the playoffs, but playoff seeds (six total) were determined by overall record. I've been told that this defeats the purpose of having divisions. I like having divisions, but last year I wasn't comfortable with handing the division winners an automatic first-round bye. But if we expanded to 12 teams and each division had six, I feel a little bit better about it. I would put one expansion team in each division. Should division winners get a first-round bye?

=============================
It sounds like you are having each team play the others twice. Yes this does defeat the purpose of having divisions. Your schedule be set up where you play inside your division more times than outside of it. With two six team divisions, you can play your own division three tims each and the other division once for 21 weeks. This makes divisions matter. I can make you a schedule if you want. == Divisions winners should get a bye if you are having six teams make the playoffs. If you are having eight make the playoffs there would be no byes.
================================


Would my league be better if I made these changes? Or should I keep things the same? Thanks in advance for any and all advice.

Gracias,
Kodiak :-D
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Re: Mulling expansion of 10-team league to 12. Pitfalls?

Postby fast dogs » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:21 pm

A 12 teamer with no corners or middles is considered shallow too, but its a step in the right direction.Definitely expand the # of teams and consider adding and OF & P spot as well; bigger is better
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Re: Mulling expansion of 10-team league to 12. Pitfalls?

Postby MTUCache » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:30 pm

1.) You're 10-team league (220 players) would be what I consider to be extremely shallow. A 12-team (264) is what I would consider average-to-shallow. I wouldn't get worried about depth until you're at 400+ players AL/NL or 200+ in a single league.

2.) I personally favor larger rosters, including MI/CI/5xOF, etc, as well as having a long bench. That's just me though (and I'm looking at it mostly from a daily-roto setup as well). This is more of a preference thing for the owners in your league. Seeing as how you've obviously had success with a shallow league, I'm guessing they prefer the smaller rosters for more star-power. Adding another couple starters would be my move (OF/SP). I think a bench of 6 spots is probably fine for what you're dealing with here.

3.) Not much for me to say here... I dislike H2H and divisions for all the issues you're dealing with. Having a team who finishes in the bottom half of the league have even a slight chance of winning the whole thing because of a good September is a travesty in my eyes. The entire idea of playoffs in sports makes the regular season worth significantly less. I'd prefer doing away with them altogether, or limiting it to only the two highest record teams competing over an entire month, rather than just one week. Way too much variance for me.
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Re: Mulling expansion of 10-team league to 12. Pitfalls?

Postby BitterDodgerFan » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:53 pm

12 is shallow to me.. i go for 14.
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Re: Mulling expansion of 10-team league to 12. Pitfalls?

Postby corefour » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:02 pm

1. Yes, 220 is very shallow. I usually shoot for a depth of around 360 players in my leagues. So for a 12-team league, that would be 30 players per team including starting and bench spots. You should go at least 300 players deep, which would be 25 players per team, which is still too shallow for my taste, but may be OK for the guys in your league.

2. In the 12-team league with 30 players that I referenced, the roster spots are as follows:
C
1B
2B
3B
SS
CI
MI
OF x5
UTIL
SP x6
RP x4
P x2
Bench x5
DL x3

3. Yes, division winners should get an automatic bye or at least a top two seed. Otherwise, there's really no point to winning your division or having divisions at all. Just because a division winner's record is inferior to the 2nd or 3rd place team in the other division doesn't necessarily mean their team is inferior. Perhaps their division was just tougher and more balanced, while the other division was more top-heavy.
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Re: Mulling expansion of 10-team league to 12. Pitfalls?

Postby Kodiak » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:56 pm

Thank you everyone for the advice so far. I'm pretty sure we will go up to 12 teams. Some thoughts/follow-up questions on those suggestions:

On divisions, I agree that it makes sense that if you're going to win your division, you should do it by actually playing the teams in your division and making a division race out of it. So I like bigmck's suggestion that a team play all the other teams in their division three times, and then play each team in the other division once. That works out to 21 weeks.

And that actually helps with another issue I've had, that our season was one week too long. I've never liked that the championship round was over two weeks and, by nature, MLB teams already in the playoffs were resting their starters. By shortening our season by one week we can play each team in the division three times and have a three-week playoff system to include the top 6 teams. (Expanding to 12 also means half the teams make the playoffs, not more than half).

I'm also on board with the idea of adding three rounds, getting us from 22 to 25. Going up to 5 OF sounds good, but then I think you almost have to add at least 1 MI and 1 CI (2 IF not the same thing, but would that work?). And since we're only 5x5 and not scoring holds or anything like that, adding RP spots doesn't make sense to me (and if I'm wrong about this please let me know) because you're really only fishing for middle relievers to help with Ks, WHIP and ERA. So I thought maybe adding 1 SP would be fine.

So for rosters I have a couple ideas. Leaning toward Option 4.
Option 1 — C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, 5 OF, Util — 3 SP, 2 RP, 3 P — 6 BN, 2 DL
Option 2 — C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, MI, CI, 4 OF, Util — 3 SP, 2 RP, 3 P — 5 BN, 2 DL
Option 3 — C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, 2 IF, 4 OF, Util — 3 SP, 2 RP, 3 P — 5 BN, 2 DL
Option 4 — C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, IF, 4 OF, Util — 3 SP, 2 RP, 4 P — 5 BN, 2 DL

Thanks again,
Kodiak :-D
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Re: Mulling expansion of 10-team league to 12. Pitfalls?

Postby mkultra » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:33 pm

Ignore the purist snobs. 12-team mixed league play is perfectly fine. My longest-lasting league is a 12-teamer with a similar roster setup to yours. Every team gets a few superstars, but you're still rounding out your roster with marginal guys.

I like your option 4.
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Re: Mulling expansion of 10-team league to 12. Pitfalls?

Postby fast dogs » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:46 pm

Just a reminder MLB is changing their schedule this year starting and ending midweek. Your 1st and last weeks will be extra long if its a 10 day "week" so there might be 1 week less anyway. I imagine alot of leagues will just stop on Sunday & not count the last Mon-Tue-Wed of the season when most regulars get irregular playing time
I remember the first year we changed to adding middles and corners but didn't add an OF to the roster, all the best free agents that year were OF'ers. Like you were thinking if you went to 5 OF you'd want another inf, but 4 OF should be fine.
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Re: Mulling expansion of 10-team league to 12. Pitfalls?

Postby Kodiak » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:31 pm

@mkultra: Eh, purist snobs don't bother me. Not that I think anyone who took the time to comment on here is one.

Thanks again to everyone's advice — bigmck, fast dogs, MTUCache, BitterDodgerFan, corefour and mklutra. I think you've helped improve my league and I appreciate your input. Can't wait for the season to start!

Gracias,
Kodiak :-D
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