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Would this veto be justified?

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Would this veto be justified?

Postby Fantasy GM » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:32 pm

In the current 12 team, H2H points league that I commish, no trades have been vetoed in the two-year history of the league. During the first season, only the league commish could veto a trade. Last season, one team obsessed about having a vote for trades, and that proposal was passed. In the 12-team league, it would take 6 votes (out of the 10 other teams) to veto a deal. If there aren't enough votes for either side, then the commish makes the final call. Going into this season, all teams keep 3 players. Going into next season (2012), teams will be allowed to expand and keep 4 players.

Keeping all of that in mind, a trade of draft picks has drawn some voting opposition from the league. It has already reached five veto votes, one more and it's no deal. The deal is (please note that the draft begins in Round 4, 37th overall pick and the final round is Round 23):

TEAM A GETS: Round 5 pick (53), Round 20 pick (236), Round 22 pick (260), Round 23 pick (269)

TEAM B GETS: Round 8 pick (94), Round 9 pick (99), Round 10 pick (118), Round 11 pick (123)


Though Team A receives the highest pick in the trade, it appears the league feels Team B is coming away with a lot more because of the surplus of picks he'd get in the earlier/middle part of the draft. There's a chance the players picked by Team A at the very end of the draft could be dropped early in the season since those players usually aren't so good.

Here's the catch to the whole thing: Team A told me in confidence that he was one of the veto-ers! 8-o He says he felt forced to go through with the trade even though he didn't really want to do it. Apparently, Team A and B were exchanging offers over AIM, Team A hurriedly suggested one, to which Team B immediately accepted and then held Team A to that offer since "he said it." Because of this, Team A then went into the league site and proposed it to Team B. Both owners alerted me of this trade as they were passing it through the site system.

In the league constitution, if a team offers a trade through the website to another team and it is accepted, there are no "take-backs" - barring a veto, the trade would go through. Here, it seems Team B held Team A to its offer on AIM...before going to the site and offering it officially.

So, what do you make of this? 1.) Is the trade one-sided or simply very unfair? 2.) Due to the circumstances involved, does this trade deserve a veto or not? I normally would only veto if: A.) There is collusion, or B.) The trade is completely one-sided.

It's a combination of the AIM antics, the current vote, and the trade itself that put it into question. What is your verdict?
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Re: Would this veto be justified?

Postby bigmck » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:14 pm

Any fantasy league that trades draft picks is only asking for problems. Were you aware that in MLB it is against the rules to trade draft picks? There must be a reason..............
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Re: Would this veto be justified?

Postby Fantasy GM » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:38 pm

bigmck wrote:Any fantasy league that trades draft picks is only asking for problems. Were you aware that in MLB it is against the rules to trade draft picks? There must be a reason..............


The NFL, NBA and NHL disagree with you then. :-b Also, remember MLB draft picks don't go to the Majors right away, like they do in the other three major leagues. So there is a difference. In fantasy, obviously, the players you pick will help carry your team all season long.
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Re: Would this veto be justified?

Postby MTUCache » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:50 pm

First, I'm not big on trading draft picks, whatever the league format. It's too easy for inexperienced or ignorant players to get duped because of how much their "value" fluctuates based on how far away the draft is.

Second, team/owner vetoes are one of the easiest ways to break up an otherwise good league. The simplest and most effective method for dealing with trade disputes is to have the commish make an immediate ruling on it (or have an uninvolved panel do the voting) and then stop all discussion about it. The more vocal and public debate the commish allows the more devisive, vindictive, and childish the owners seem to act.

All that being said... there is some way where you can establish "values" for each draft pick, based on the depth and distribution of talent within the player pool. Supposedly, a table like THIS is the type of thing that NFL GMs would consult when trading picks. I'm sure that these particular values would have very little to do with a fantasy baseball draft, but just using it as an example you've got a total on one side of 372 points (the team getting the fifth rounder), and a total on the other side of 335 points (the side getting the 8/9/10/11 picks).

Easily close enough that I would not suspect collusion or league-tampering.... which are the only reasonable excuses for EVER vetoing a trade. If a poor owner makes bad decisions that hurt his team, that's his business. If you think that it's unfair for another owner to profit off of them maybe you should have made him a better offer. :-X

Lastly, it's a H2H points league... which to me makes it automatically a casual, non-serious, and non-competitive league among friends. If it was truly a measure of skill and baseball knowledge it would be a roto league. ;-D
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Re: Would this veto be justified?

Postby fast dogs » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:57 pm

couple things. the team involved is vetoing his own trade? I've never played in a league where you can vote on your own deal. Trade talk on IM is just that, talk. The owner should be able to change his mind until he makes the offer, if he felt pressure to go thru with it thats on him. Once its in the voting process the ship has sailed. I think its a bad deal for him just getting the 1 earlier pick but the league isn't going to be thrown into turmoil by this draft pick deal. I'd let it play out just the way you have it set up.
offseason trading of draft picks has been 1 of my keeper leagues best moves, although we've always had players involved with the picks. It really aids lesser teams with poorer rosters(especially abandoned teams with new owners) get a player or 2 they like for a pick exchange
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Re: Would this veto be justified?

Postby Fantasy GM » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:08 pm

fast dogs wrote:couple things. the team involved is vetoing his own trade?
Yes. I know it sounds strange, but I don't think anyone would expect a trade participant to veto their own deal.

I've never played in a league where you can vote on your own deal.
It's on ESPN, so the system allows all teams to vote.

Trade talk on IM is just that, talk. The owner should be able to change his mind until he makes the offer, if he felt pressure to go thru with it thats on him. Once its in the voting process the ship has sailed.
True. It seems Team A was forced into going through with the trade since Team B was on his case about how "he already agreed to it."

I think its a bad deal for him just getting the 1 earlier pick but the league isn't going to be thrown into turmoil by this draft pick deal. I'd let it play out just the way you have it set up.
As you said, I will just let this play out. If the trade stays at 5 vetoes, then it stands. If it hits 6, then no deal.

offseason trading of draft picks has been 1 of my keeper leagues best moves, although we've always had players involved with the picks. It really aids lesser teams with poorer rosters(especially abandoned teams with new owners) get a player or 2 they like for a pick exchange
We do the exact same thing. Several trades of that type have already taken place and it's a good deal for both teams.


MTUCache - Don't worry, I'm not entering the fray with these two teams over those picks lol. :-b As I mentioned earlier, the commish would be the only one who can veto a trade in the league's first year. Unfortunately, a few teams (ironically led by Team B) started chirping about how I could abuse my commish powers if I didn't allow teams to vote and so forth. :-? Most other teams were ok with me determining trades (I never veto), but somehow the "allowing a vote" won 7-5, so now we have votes for trades.

BTW, what site did you derive the pick values from?
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Re: Would this veto be justified?

Postby MTUCache » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:24 pm

Fantasy GM wrote:MTUCache - Don't worry, I'm not entering the fray with these two teams over those picks lol. :-b As I mentioned earlier, the commish would be the only one who can veto a trade in the league's first year. Unfortunately, a few teams (ironically led by Team B) started chirping about how I could abuse my commish powers if I didn't allow teams to vote and so forth. :-? Most other teams were ok with me determining trades (I never veto), but somehow the "allowing a vote" won 7-5, so now we have votes for trades.

BTW, what site did you derive the pick values from?


The pick values came from the link I posted there... just googled it to an ESPN site. I have no idea if it's current or how it would apply to anything other than the NFL draft.

If this was my league I'd tell them two things:
1.) I will have the only veto power over any trade not involving my team.
2.) Any trade which does involve my team and is protested by more than half of the league will be submitted as a poll question to an independent panel on an online forum (like this) for a vote. After 24 hours or 20 votes (whichever comes first), the results of that poll will control.

No owner vetoes. This is the easiest way for a commish to lose complete control over his own league and just throw in the towel. It's your league, you run it how you want. If you suck at it they'll all leave anyway, nobody is forcing them to participate. If you're good at it, and they're all good friends (or at least decent people), minor problems won't turn into screaming matches.

You're letting your owners vote on whether or not they're going to vote on things? Ugh. This already sounds like WAY more trouble than it's worth. If they're that worried about you "abusing your commish powers" maybe they shouldn't be in the league anyway. Who are they trusting to hold the money?
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Re: Would this veto be justified?

Postby Fantasy GM » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:17 pm

MTUCache - your wishes may come true. There has been some whispers lately of just restoring the trade decisions back to the commish. Only a handful of teams vote for the most post, rendering the process nearly useless. Additionally, almost all the teams have no issues with the decisions I hand down.

Surprisingly, there are some heated rivalries in the league, which make for intense debates on the message boards (more with each other, not with me). Not all 12 teams are close friends, as some teams come from different groups. However, they all know fantasy baseball, which is most important.
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Re: Would this veto be justified?

Postby Fantasy GM » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:07 pm

Any other thoughts here? I don't veto trades, but wanted to see if anyone else would want to give their two cents before I go about the next step.
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Re: Would this veto be justified?

Postby bigmck » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:47 pm

In your original post you said "If there aren't enough votes for either side, then the commish makes the final call."
========================

That isn't right. The rule is it takes six votes to veto. If there are not six votes against, the trade passes. At no time should the Commish be involved.
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