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Rep. Giffords

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Re: Rep. Giffords

Postby wrveres » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:36 am

i just pointed out the hypocrisy.


No you didn't, you made yourself look worse

thats your opinion, cus you didn't like the messenger. I wonder, did you even read her post?
And what of the other questions i asked. any chance of you answering them?
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Re: Rep. Giffords

Postby Neato Torpedo » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:25 am

wrveres wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:But all the shouting about the Second Amendment sometimes leaves itself open for interpretation.
isn't that true for both sides, about any law, at any point in time in our country.
we have always been a 50/50 split,and the politics being played now are mild in comparison to our history.

The difference in this particular issue is that us hippie liberals are always shouting about being anti-war, anti-death penalty, pro-gun control, pro-weapons reduction treaties, etc. Given the track record, it's not nearly as easily to label them as violent.
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Re: Rep. Giffords

Postby Neato Torpedo » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:28 am

I also like how GoodOleDays hasn't replied to my post from earlier.
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Re: Rep. Giffords

Postby wrveres » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:11 am

Neato Torpedo wrote:
wrveres wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:But all the shouting about the Second Amendment sometimes leaves itself open for interpretation.
isn't that true for both sides, about any law, at any point in time in our country.
we have always been a 50/50 split,and the politics being played now are mild in comparison to our history.

The difference in this particular issue is that us hippie liberals are always shouting, burning down buildings and destroying private property, about being anti-war, anti-death penalty, pro-gun control, pro-weapons reduction treaties, etc. Given the track record, it's not nearly as easily to label them as violent.

fyp :-D
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Re: Rep. Giffords

Postby wrveres » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:42 am

Before he allegedly went off on his shooting rampage in Tucson, Jared Loughner listed some of his favorite books on his YouTube page. These included: “Animal Farm,” “Brave New World,” “Alice in Wonderland,” “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest,” “Through the Looking Glass” and “The Communist Manifesto.” Many of these books share a common theme: individuals trying to control their own thoughts and government or some other force trying to take that control away.

Loughner also made a series of videos. These, too, suggest that he was struggling to control his own mind. Just before his killing spree, Loughner made one called “My Final Thoughts.” In it he writes about different levels of consciousness and dreaming. He tries to build a rigid structure to organize his thinking. He uses the word “currency” as a metaphor for an inner language to make sense of the world.

“You create and distribute your new currency, listener?” the video asks. “You don’t allow the government to control your grammar structure, listener?”

All of this evidence, which is easily accessible on the Internet, points to the possibility that Loughner may be suffering from a mental illness like schizophrenia. The vast majority of schizophrenics are not violent, and those that receive treatment are not violent. But as Dr. E. Fuller Torrey, a research psychiatrist, writes in his book, “The Insanity Offense,” about 1 percent of the seriously mentally ill (or about 40,000 individuals) are violent. They account for about half the rampage murders in the United States.

Other themes from Loughner’s life fit the rampage-killer profile. He saw himself in world historical terms. He appeared to have a poor sense of his own illness (part of a condition known as anosognosia). He had increasingly frequent run-ins with the police. In short, the evidence before us suggests that Loughner was locked in a world far removed from politics as we normally understand it.

Yet the early coverage and commentary of the Tucson massacre suppressed this evidence. The coverage and commentary shifted to an entirely different explanation: Loughner unleashed his rampage because he was incited by the violent rhetoric of the Tea Party, the anti-immigrant movement and Sarah Palin.

Mainstream news organizations linked the attack to an offensive target map issued by Sarah Palin’s political action committee. The Huffington Post erupted, with former Senator Gary Hart flatly stating that the killings were the result of angry political rhetoric. Keith Olbermann demanded a Palin repudiation and the founder of the Daily Kos wrote on Twitter: “Mission Accomplished, Sarah Palin.” Others argued that the killing was fostered by a political climate of hate.

These accusations — that political actors contributed to the murder of 6 people, including a 9-year-old girl — are extremely grave. They were made despite the fact that there was, and is, no evidence that Loughner was part of these movements or a consumer of their literature. They were made despite the fact that the link between political rhetoric and actual violence is extremely murky.

They were vicious charges made by people who claimed to be criticizing viciousness.

Yet such is the state of things. We have a news media that is psychologically ill informed but politically inflamed, so it naturally leans toward political explanations. We have a news media with a strong distaste for Sarah Palin and the Tea Party movement, and this seemed like a golden opportunity to tarnish them. We have a segmented news media, so there is nobody in most newsrooms to stand apart from the prevailing assumptions. We have a news media market in which the rewards go to anybody who can stroke the audience’s pleasure buttons.

I have no love for Sarah Palin, and I like to think I’m committed to civil discourse. But the political opportunism occasioned by this tragedy has ranged from the completely irrelevant to the shamelessly irresponsible.

The good news is that there were a few skeptics, even during the height of the mania: Howard Kurtz of The Daily Beast, James Fallows of The Atlantic and Jonathan Chait of The New Republic. The other good news is that the mainstream media usually recovers from its hysterias and tries belatedly to get the story right.

If the evidence continues as it has, the obvious questions are these: How can we more aggressively treat mentally ill people who are becoming increasingly disruptive? How can we prevent them from getting guns? Do we need to make involuntary treatment easier for authorities to invoke?

Torrey’s book describes a nation that has been unable to come up with a humane mental health policy — one that protects the ill from their own demons and society from their rare but deadly outbursts. The other problem is this: contemporary punditry lives in the world of superficial tactics and interests. It is unprepared when an event opens the door to a deeper realm of disorder, cruelty and horror.

the very liberal ny times.
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Re: Rep. Giffords

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:23 am

Neato Torpedo wrote:I also like how GoodOleDays hasn't replied to my post from earlier.

It's 'tangential'. ;-7
Last edited by StlSluggers on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rep. Giffords

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:26 am

wrveres wrote:All of this evidence, which is easily accessible on the Internet, points to the possibility that Loughner may be suffering from a mental illness like schizophrenia. The vast majority of schizophrenics are not violent, and those that receive treatment are not violent. But as Dr. E. Fuller Torrey, a research psychiatrist, writes in his book, “The Insanity Offense,” about 1 percent of the seriously mentally ill (or about 40,000 individuals) are violent. They account for about half the rampage murders in the United States.
...
Torrey’s book describes a nation that has been unable to come up with a humane mental health policy — one that protects the ill from their own demons and society from their rare but deadly outbursts. The other problem is this: contemporary punditry lives in the world of superficial tactics and interests. It is unprepared when an event opens the door to a deeper realm of disorder, cruelty and horror.

The biggest tragedy in this whole circumstance isn't that it happened, it's that it involved a political figure in a non-political event.
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Wrong Forum!

Postby WebHamster » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:00 am

I'm keeping my eye on Wrveres and Good Ole Days/whatever banned person coming back to haunt us that this might me.
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Re: Rep. Giffords

Postby RugbyD » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:40 am

GoodOl'Days wrote:The system is our form of democracy.

This doesn't make sense. For this event to have been an attack on "our system" as you describe it, it must be unique to our system. However, this attack in any system of government could be said by someone to be an attack on the system, therefore there is nothing unique about this event as it relates to our system of government. I also haven't seen anything from JL making coherent arguments for or against a constitutional republic vs something else.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/the-giffords-tragedy-is-the-media-partly-at-fault-20110110

Seem like a bit of a waste of space. Nice thoughts, but not really relevant to recent events given that this could have been written 9 months ago.

The fact is conservatives which incite violence with their rhetoric make up a significant proportion of the conservative voice. Liberals who speak in violent terms are more seen as outsiders by all and are dismissed for the most part by mainstream liberals. So yes there is going to be more focus on the right wing on this issue, no one has attempted to profit more by such speech.

Please cite your facts. Talking about their existence without actually providing any of them doesn't help the perception that some people in this thread seem to have that you are viewing this through colored lenses.

He planned and calculated his attack. This isn't a random act of a crazy person,...
Nobody is saying it was random. Crazy people premeditate crazy s*** all the time. Every serial killer is a crazy premeditator.

I'm a little surprised and a little saddened because it doesn't seem to be considered an important event in American history to the vast majority of those who have responded so far. I assure you a premeditated assassination attempt on a member of Congress by a young man is.

Reconsider the notion that your response is the product of some recency bias and possibly a little political bias.
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Re: Wrong Forum!

Postby wrveres » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:54 am

WebHamster wrote:I'm keeping my eye on Wrveres and Good Ole Days/whatever banned person coming back to haunt us that this might me.
meh.
i had a nice long history lesson typed out for ya, but i think i'll put it in my pocket. for now. O:-)
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